Israel invades Lebanon after new capturing of soldiers

[Gangerolf]

I just heard that the Israelis think Hizbollah has 10 thousand rockets

and that Hizbollah denies firing rockets at Haifa

[Lorizael]

Originally posted by Jaguar
Go ahead. They're more likely to address it quickly with more reports, according to Markos, and Aggie is fine with being banned, so we might as well get it over with.

Done.

[Gangerolf]

they're saying if Israel attacks Beirut they will bomb Haifa

[Ming]

Originally posted by Agathon


If that's your opinion, I hope you die in it.

Agathon... It is OK to have a difference of opinion... It's OK to discuss it in a civil fashion... It's Ok to be a "little" heated in what is considered an emotional issue...

It is NOT ok to wish death on another member.

I don't care what your personal feelings are on this issue, but to threaten or wish death on another member will get you a long ban...

So do not do so again, or you will be toast for a very long time.

[Sandman]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Go after Southern Lebanon and Hezbollah's leadership there. The Lebanese government may privately thank them for it. But as soon as they bomb the only international airport in the capital... well, all bets are off.

Well said. I don't buy the idea that it's 'in a Hezbollah area'.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Az
In any case, I feel a distinct sense of criticism for criticism's sake, without any productive solutions...

You want productive solutions? Then what about:

See where political Hamas is going. Managing the day-to-day matters of a country (especially in their position as government, whose very function is to dredge in petty daily matters) will seriously soften dogma. Continue to kill militants, but see where the politicos are going.
There were already some encouraging signs, with Hamas finally agreeing on the "prisoner's text", that indirectly recognizes Israel's right to existence. For Hamas, such recognition is a huge step (and it was definitely difficult for Abbas to obtain Hamas' endorsement).

The hostage crisis could have been a test to see how pragmatic the political Hamas is. By discussing with them, and by seeing how ideological they were about the whole issue. Instead, Israel chose to make a full-fledged attack, thus re-radicalizing everybody. It's no surprise that the murder of a young colonist happened right after that. In the end, Israel acted in an ideological "no talks with terrist scum" way.

Same with Hizbullah. Hizbullah has started to weaken recently, with Syria's troops out of Lebanon, with the Lebanese more willing to have independence, with the loss of their political partners in domestic politics, with the diplomatic isolation of baby Assad (who now has much less freedom of movement).
Yet, despite these recent signs of weakening, Hizbullah remains a very strong force in Lebanon. The Lebanese government can't fight directly against Hizbullah: the latter is so strong that it would be a civil war, and you might understand that the Lebanese don't want to go through the same nightmare. Thus, the Lebanese have tried to integrate Hizbullah into the mainstream process, where he could be made much less harmful.

As soon as the Hizbullah understood what it could milk from Israel's obsession with showing its strength, it did. Hizbullah cares nothing about the interests of Lebanon, so they see no problem inviting Israel to a bloody picnic in there.
What Israel should be doing is attacking Hizbullah, instead of Lebanon. The Lebanese government, and a great many Lebanese people would actually be relieved to see the organization beheaded. Considering how apt the Mossad is, I guess that targeted assassination is possible in Hizbullah's case.

[Az]

The hostage crisis could have been a test to see how pragmatic the political Hamas is. By discussing with them, and by seeing how ideological they were about the whole issue. Instead, Israel chose to make a full-fledged attack, thus re-radicalizing everybody. It's no surprise that the murder of a young colonist happened right after that. In the end, Israel acted in an ideological "no talks with terrist scum" way.

Why should we discuss with people who can't even accept our existance? We didn't do that before their act, and we are sure not about to do that after that. And what is there to discuss?

Plus, not everyone's radicalized in Hamas, as well. It's the Damascus HQ who are in power these days...

What Israel should be doing is attacking Hizbullah, instead of Lebanon. The Lebanese government, and a great many Lebanese people would actually be relieved to see the organization beheaded. Considering how apt the Mossad is, I guess that targeted assassination is possible in Hizbullah's case.

Hizbullah is in Lebanon - in it's cities, and towns. There is only one way to attack them - Go there with tanks APCs, and infantry - or bomb villages, which is just dandy, I know you all just love that ****.

Whatever Israel could do against Hizbullah proper without placing a couple of divisions inside Lebanon, it did - it bombed it's TV station, it destroyed all of it's bases in the range of field artillery.

"Go after the head of Hizbullah" is awesome, but If we bombed the parliament building in Beiruit to kill their leaders whining about "targetting politicians" would start.

[Heresson]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
Anybody gets a bit knocked back when attacked without warning by several nations cooperating across multiple fronts. Still didn't get the arabs much, though, did it? The Egyptians certainly had no taste for fighting Israel after '73. Nor the Saudis, Jordanians or Iraqis. If the UN whiners hadn't saved their asses, Israeli armor would have been in Damascus.

I know, but Syrians are actually convinced that UN saved Israeli's asses

Originally posted by Lancer
I've always been strongly pro Israel. They have to do what they have to do to save their existance. It seems the mission of their enemies is to get others to support Isreal and while that costs the lives of innocents in our countries it is very helpful to the continued existance of Israel.

Israel is the first line of defense against terrorism and moslem resurgance of the western democracies.

It used to defend its right of existance all right (on lands stolen from muslims and christians), but now it is defending its "rights" to occupy the small remains of what was once Palestine and also of two neighbour states.
Your second comment reminds me of a joke in which in return to a question of greatest achievements of communism, one replied that its greatest achievement is overcoming difficulties created by itself.
Israel is very much the cause if not of existance, then of mass popularity of muslim terrorist groups. Why? Its creation in the middle of the Arab lands, on majorly Arab and muslim lands where Jews were fresh immigrants, its further attrocities towards Palestinians including mass banning of them from Palestine (and Syrians of Golan) to make place for Israeli settlers, the extremly harsh and inhumane responces to any signs of opposition towards their occupation, and most of all the unjust support of it by western states and especially by America caused an outrage through Arab and Muslim world that is largely responsible for reviving of muslim fundamentalism and birth of muslim terrorism.
Also, its american-sponsored victories over socialist-ruled arab states gained fundamentalism more support as well.

America and Israel act silly. They want to fight terrorism, but they are fighting the symptoms of it, not the causes of it. it's like leaving the roots of an unwanted weed in the garden - it will grow out again. The cause of Hizb Allah's or Hamas' fight against Israel, and most of all what gains support for this fight of theirs is not hatred towards America or even Israel per se, but the Israeli occupation of Palestinians and Lebaneese and the harsh actions took by Israel against Arab civilians. For example - one Israeli soldier is being captured, Israel starts an action killing in first days only 50 people. And these are 50 more families to have reasons or excuses to kill or kidnap an Israeli.
Why is Israel acting like this? because it knows no-one can stop it from doing so. America can, but it never will.

Originally posted by Lancer
Israel, land of the people with BIG balls.

More a state of BIG american-supported army. Israelis are not at all brave. They can crush all its neighbours at once.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Az
Why should we discuss with people who can't even accept our existance? We didn't do that before their act, and we are sure not about to do that after that. And what is there to discuss?

Geez, it feels like talking to a Pal zealot telling "Israel only wants to build a Greater Israel"
Let me repeat:

Originally posted by Spiffor
There were already some encouraging signs, with Hamas finally agreeing on the "prisoner's text", that indirectly recognizes Israel's right to existence. For Hamas, such recognition is a huge step

--------------------------------

Hizbullah is in Lebanon - in it's cities, and towns. There is only one way to attack them - Go there with tanks APCs, and infantry - or bomb villages, which is just dandy, I know you all just love that ****.

Don't you guys have precision missiles? How come you have managed some successful assassinations in Gaza, in which the colateral damages were the bodygards/drivers?

"Go after the head of Hizbullah" is awesome, but If we bombed the parliament building in Beiruit to kill their leaders whining about "targetting politicians" would start.

Who exactly whined when you killed Sheik Hussein?

[St Leo]

Originally posted by Spiffor
My point is that this current particular episode of **** has started with Israel wanting to "deter" the Palestinians.

Palestinian Timeline:
1. Exploding beach party.
2. Kidnapped soldiers.
3. No electricity or clean water.

Israeli Timeline:
1. Rocket attacks.
2. Kidnapped soldiers.
3. More kidnapped soldiers.

Sweet merciful Zeus.

[Kuciwalker]

Don't you guys have precision missiles? How come you have managed some successful assassinations in Gaza, in which the colateral damages were the bodygards/drivers?

Every time they do that, a civilian or two dies and everyone complains.

[Eli]

One of the dead in the tank incident was a guy a studied with in primary school. I dont remember him, though.

And right now it sucks being a news junkie without an internet connection in the middle of the half-deserted dormitories.

[Japher]

I blame Thorn.

[Stuie]

Originally posted by Japher
I blame Thorn.

It's not like he didn't warn us.

[Spiffor]

From the BBC:

Rockets hit Israeli city of Haifa
Two rockets have struck the northern Israeli port city of Haifa, hours after a threat by the militant Lebanese group Hezbollah to attack it.

Hezbollah denied firing any rockets. There were no immediate reports of injuries or damage.

Haifa, Israel's third largest city, is more than 30km (18 miles) from the Lebanese border and was thought to be out of Hezbollah's range.

Later, Lebanon's international airport was hit by strikes for the second time.

The Beirut airport was already closed following Israeli air strikes earlier on Thursday.

Israel imposed an air and sea blockade of Lebanon following the capture of two of its soldiers by Hezbollah militants on Wednesday.

About 50 Lebanese people, mostly civilians, have been killed in the raids.

'Playing with fire'

Hezbollah had said it would attack Haifa if Israeli planes bombed Beirut.

It has fired dozens of rockets into Israel in the past two days, but none have so far gone further than 20km (12 miles) inside the country.

At least one Israeli has died in the attacks and dozens have been injured.

In the latest reported attack, Israeli police said two rockets had fallen on a Christian area of Haifa called Stella Maris.

The Israeli ambassador in Washington, Danny Ayalon, described the Haifa incident as a "major escalation" of the crisis.

He said the international community should make it clear to Iran and Syria - who both have links with Hezbollah - that they were "playing with fire".

Meanwhile the UN Security Council has arranged an emergency meeting for Friday at Lebanon's request.

Israeli losses

Lebanese ministers have called for a ceasefire with Israel, saying that all means should be used to end "open aggression" against their country.


ISRAEL IN LEBANON
March 1978: Israel invades to stop Palestinian attacks
1982: Full-scale invasion; Israel occupies Beirut; pro-Israel militias massacre Palestinian refugees
May 1983: Israel pulls back, but keeps "security zone"
February 1992: Israeli air strike kills Hezbollah leader
1996: Israel launches "Grapes of Wrath" raids on Hezbollah; 100 civilians die under Israeli shelling of UN base at Qana
May 2000: Israel withdraws troops from Lebanon
January 2004: Prisoners-bodies swap agreed between Hezbollah and Israel

International calls for restraint are growing, with Russia, France and the EU saying Israel's response to the capture of two soldiers was disproportionate.

US President George W Bush described Hezbollah as a "group of terrorists who want to stop the advance of peace".

Speaking in Germany, he said Israel had the right to defend itself, but its action should not weaken the Lebanese government.

Israeli government spokesman Mark Regev said Israel was responding to "an unprovoked act of aggression" by Lebanon.

The offensive follows a day of heavy fighting in which the Israelis suffered their worst losses on the border for several years.

Eight soldiers were killed and two were injured, in addition to the two captured in a Hezbollah ambush.

The operation comes as Israel continues a separate offensive in the Gaza Strip. An Israeli soldier was captured there last month.

ISRAEL BLOCKADES LEBANON
Two rockets hit Israeli city of Haifa on Thursday evening
Israel targets Lebanon by land, air and sea: enforcing naval blockade, bombing Beirut airport and shelling Lebanese towns
Jets bomb Lebanese army air base at Rayak and Baalbek TV transmitter in Bekaa Valley
Shelling from both sides is heaviest over Lebanon's southern border
Hezbollah targets Kiryat Shmona, Nahariya and Safed in Israel