Chechen warlord Basayev reported killed

[lord of the mark]

serb

Some of those sound like ordinary crimes in an anarchy plagued area - carjackings and what not. At least a few are AFTER the Russian "invasion".

according to your quote, 300,000 Russians left the entire Caucasus, INCLUDING areas that remained under Russian control. Ingusetia, Dagestan, etc, etc. Are you suggesting there were genocidal massacres in those places as well? An exodus does not prove a massacre, only worsening conditions, including economic conditions - hundreds of thousands of Jews have left Russia, and many ethnic Germans - are you suggesting that Jews and ethnic Germans have been subject to massacres in post Soviet Russia?

[Serb]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
serb

Some of those sound like ordinary crimes in an anarchy plagued area - carjackings and what not. At least a few are AFTER the Russian "invasion".

according to your quote, 300,000 Russians left the entire Caucasus, INCLUDING areas that remained under Russian control. Ingusetia, Dagestan, etc, etc. Are you suggesting there were genocidal massacres in those places as well?

Read again:
"from the year 1989 to 2002 the Russian population in the Caucasus reduced to 30%, which means by 13 times in Chechnya, by 6.5 times in Ingushetia, and 1.5 times in Dagestan (Komsomolskya pravda, November 18, 2003)".

Compare 13 (Chechnya - bloodbath) to 1.5 (Dagestan - worsening conditions) and you'll get your answer. As for Ingushetia, it's somthing in between. Ingushetia and Chechnya was the same republic untill recently - "Checheno-Ingushskaya SSR". Ingushes loves Russians no more than Chechens, they just were a bit more wiser to don't start a total "Jihad" like Chechens did.
Some 260,000 have left Chechnya and Ingushetia, and another 34,000 from Dagestan, North Ossetia, Kabardino-Balkaria, and Karachaevo-Cherkessia combined. (Radio Liberty, June 23, 2002).

Now compare 260. 000 in Chechnya and Ingushetia (bloodbath/oppression) vs. 34. 000 in Dagestan, North Ossetia, Kabardino-Balkaria, and Karachaevo-Cherkessia COMBINED (worsening conditions).

An exodus does not prove a massacre, only worsening conditions, including economic conditions - hundreds of thousands of Jews have left Russia, and many ethnic Germans - are you suggesting that Jews and ethnic Germans have been subject to massacres in post Soviet Russia?

Of courese not. And you perfectly knew why Jews and Germans were leaving Russia after collapse of the USSR. Their new Motherland offered a MUCH more better standard of living for them, than they had in devastated remains of the Soviet Empire. Both Israel and Germany had/have special repatriation programmes to gather new citizens. It's something that Russia doesn't have even now, not to mention the 90s.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Serb


Of courese not. And you perfectly knew why Jews and Germans were leaving Russia after collapse of the USSR. Their new Motherland offered a MUCH more better standard of living for them, than they had in devastated remains of the Soviet Empire. Both Israel and Germany had/have special repatriation programmes to gather new citizens. It's something that Russia doesn't have even now, not to mention the 90s.

Moscow and St Petersburg didnt offer far better standards of living in the 1990s than war-torn Grozny? Az or Eli or Sirotnikov would have to answer as to how paltry the handouts given to Soviet Jews on arrival in Israel actually were.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Serb


Read again:
" from the year 1989 to 2002 the Russian population in the Caucasus reduced to 30%, which means by 13 times in Chechnya, by 6.5 times in Ingushetia, and 1.5 times in Dagestan (Komsomolskya pravda, November 18, 2003)".

It would help if someone actually translated this sentence into english.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Serb
Of courese not. And you perfectly knew why Jews and Germans were leaving Russia after collapse of the USSR. Their new Motherland offered a MUCH more better standard of living for them, than they had in devastated remains of the Soviet Empire. Both Israel and Germany had/have special repatriation programmes to gather new citizens. It's something that Russia doesn't have even now, not to mention the 90s.

Can you by the way explain, what you've done with the Germans we "loaned" you a few centuries ago? Because, that's what coming here now,

a) does not speak German, and does not even try to learn it
b) does not look very Germanic (nothing racist, but you know there are certain distinctions between Germanics and Slavs, my Russian wife taught me to tell them, btw)
c) has none of the German traits (industriousness, punctuality, you know the attributes, that others attach to our people)

Well... if it comes to c), I am no German neither, my wife calls me a lentyaj (and right she is ), but at least I qualify for a) and b).

But that what lives in our neighbor village and calls itself "Germans from Russia", definitely qualifies neither for a), nor b) nor c). There may be exceptions, but that's the rule. And you probably know, that I can tell a Russian, when I see one.

[Darius871]

Originally posted by Serb

FYSIP, MF.

Originally posted by Serb
And this link is personally for Darius871:

http://www.ogrish.com/archives/russian_soldier_beated_and_beheaded_by_chechen_rebel_Apr_09_2005.html

Feels better, MF?

Originally posted by Serb
Unfortunatelly, the link doesn't work as intended. You should slide through their bloody archive to find the beheading of Russian prisoners in Chechnya.

Just type "Russian soldier beaten and beheaded " in search field of that site and you'll get your bloody video.

http://www.flurl.com/list.php?search=Russian%20soldier%20beaten%20and%20beheaded%20&site_id=39&sm=1

Hope you feels better now, Darius.

In Sovjet Rossia, thread troll you!

[Serb]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


Moscow and St Petersburg didnt offer far better standards of living in the 1990s than war-torn Grozny?

1) Who said anything about the war-torn Grozny? The massacre of Russians started long before any Russian regiment aproached the city.
2) The Chechens flee both in Moscow and St Petersburg during the war. Aside Russians their society is "clan-structured" with mutual aid mechanisms. Wherever you have ten Chechen, the year after you'll see a hundred of them. Now they represent a considerable part and influencing part of population of both cities (esp. influencing in regard to organized crime, they own restaurants, casinos, nightclubs, they hold drug dealing and arms dealing markets, etc. And they always send back home a share of their revenue to by some new weapons, hire new mercenaries, etc.)

Az or Eli or Sirotnikov would have to answer as to how paltry the handouts given to Soviet Jews on arrival in Israel actually were.

After collapse of the USSR, in Moscow, I have to spent a FEW HOURS in line to buy a LIMITED QUANTITY of pasta or rice (not to mention more luxurious food). And I could have buy it ONLY if I had a proper document proving that I live in that exact disctrict of the city. The situation in other cities was much worse. And now you tries to prove me that Jewish and German repatriates had ALIKE problems in early 90s?

[lord of the mark]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by Serb

) Who said anything about the war-torn Grozny? The massacre of Russians started long before any Russian regiment aproached the city.

From the quote YOU cited, its not clear how many fled when. It mentioned the entire time from 1989 to 2002.

"2) The Chechens flee both in Moscow and St Petersburg during the war.

In english, this would imply the fled from one part of Moscow to another. Surely you mean they fled TO Moscow and St Peterburg. Of course if Chechens were moving to Moscow, this would confirm movement for economic reasons and to get away from war. Surely the Chechens werent fleeing racial persecution in Chechnya?

After collapse of the USSR, in Moscow, I have to spent a FEW HOURS in line to buy a LIMITED QUANTITY of pasta or rice (not to mention more luxurious food). And I could have buy it ONLY if I had a proper document proving that I live in nearby disctric of MOSCOW. The situation in other sities was much worse. And now you tries to prove me that Jewish and German repatriates had ALIKE problems in early 90s?

I was referring to your specific mention of ingathering programs. Yes Russian Jews had the automatic right to get into Israel - but there are no restrictions on Russian moving from Chechnya to Moscow, so theres no difference in that respect. Yes economic conditions in Tel Aviv in 1993 were far better than those in Moscow - but that applied to all Israelis, it was not do to any special ingathering program. It seemed therefore that you were referring to specific handouts to immigrants, which AFAIK are paltry in Israel.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Serb
As for hundreds of thousands, just try to type "Russian exodus from Chechnya" in google.
Not that I expect much from English-speaking sources, but at least it could give you something.
Something like this, for example:

tired googling. I got a lot of stuff on exodcus by ethnic chechens, after the war began. I got a prochechen article saying the exodus of ethnic russians was just like departure of ethnic russians from the SSR's.

and i got the article you quoted from.


ETHNIC RUSSIANS IN THE NORTH CAUCASUS FACE DECISION TO EMIGRATE

By Andrei Smirnov

"The exodus of the ethnic Russians is creating a problem for the whole North Caucasus," Russian President Vladimir Putin told a group of Cossack atamans (chieftains) during a meeting in Rostov-on-Don, the capital of southern Russia. "The exodus of the Russians means a loss of a qualified labor force, and, what is worse, the art of living together is getting lost, too. While living together, both nations formed a viable community as the Russian Federation," he added.

Putin also spoke favorably about the government policy to encourage ethnic Russians to return to the region. "Certainly, essential efforts should be taken on the federal level to make people, no matter to what ethnic group they belong to, return to their firesides" (RIA-Novosti, May 25).

Unfortunately, the Russian authorities began to worry about the problem a bit too late. This process is almost completed, at least as far as the eastern part of the North Caucasus is concerned.

According to Dzhabrail Gakaev, a Russian academician, from the year 1989 to 2002 the Russian population in the Caucasus reduced to 30%, which means by 13 times in Chechnya, by 6.5 times in Ingushetia, and 1.5 times in Dagestan (Komsomolskya pravda, November 18, 2003). According to official statistics, more than 300,000 Russians have left the Caucasus over the last 10 years. Some 260,000 have left Chechnya and Ingushetia, and another 34,000 from Dagestan, North Ossetia, Kabardino-Balkaria, and Karachaevo-Cherkessia combined. (Radio Liberty, June 23, 2002). Up to 30,000 Russians left the region in 2004 alone (strana.ru, May 31).

The Russian exodus has changed the ethnic composition of the region. Not many Russians now live in Chechnya, which had the biggest Russian population in the Caucasus in Soviet days. In Ingushetia, settlements such as Troitskaya and Ordzhonikidzavskaya (Slepttsovskaya), historically were inhabited by Russian Cossacks. Only the Ingush live there now.

Russians are leaving even Adygeya, the only Caucasian regions where they are still in majority. At least 30% of the Russian population left Adygeya in recent years (RIA-Novosti, May 31). Most of them are moving to the Russian-dominated regions of the North Caucasus, such as Krasnodar krai and Stavropol krai; they do not have enough money to go nearer the Russian heartland.

The Russian exodus has a variety of causes. After the collapse of the Soviet Union, the Caucasus became the most volatile portion of the Russian Federation. The Chechen Republic proclaimed full independence and two wars ensued. In Dagestan, different ethnic groups started a brutal struggle for power that was rife with criminal violence. In the other regions, clan and family ties began to play a decisive role in politics and in businesses. The Russians were not prepared for such shifting circumstance, and they began to lose ground. In Adygeya, where two-thirds of the population is Russian, ethnic Russians control only 15% of the seats in the local parliament (Radio Liberty, June 23, 2002).

Most of the Russians worked in factories that were closed due to economic reforms, leaving them with no income. According to Yuri Bessonov, the chairman of an ethnic-Russian organization in North Ossetia, more than 20 factories were closed in the republic after 1991 (Radio Liberty, June 23, 2002). Being out of work, the Russians quickly became marginalized. The older people retreated from public life, while younger generations left the region for good.

Local authorities did try to stem the tide. Dagestan established a Special Commission on the Russian Issue. The Dagestani government issued a decree limiting all real property deals with Russians. Every time a Russian wanted to sell his property, he had to file a special notification to prove that he was not doing so against his will (Radio Liberty, June 23, 2002). This type of decree was needed to protect Russians from criminal gangs trying to grab land and houses, the most valuable property in the unstable region. As Russians did not belong to any local clans, they became easy prey.

However, such measures taken to make Russians feel more comfortable in the Caucasus have proved to be inefficient. The only alternative to migration that Russians have is to behave like the aboriginal population, that is, to create their own clans.

In Kizlyar, a town in northern Dagestan, the Russian community managed to propel their leaders into power. Vyacheslav Palamarchuk, an ethnic Russian, became mayor of the city, and Nikolai Eremeev was elected head of Kizlyar district. This year Vyacheslav Burov won the elections and became the new district head. Although Burov is an ethnic Russian, he reportedly is supported by Saigyd Murtazaliev, a leader among local Avars (the biggest ethnic group in Dagestan). His victory provoked strong protests from Eremeev supporters, who were also backed by Palamarchuk. Ultimately the two conflicting sides agreed to divide Kizlyar district into different areas. In some of them only Avars could be elected, and in others, only Russians. Thus the Russians managed to get their share of power in ethnically divided Dagestan (regnum.ru, May 20).

[Serb]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph


Can you by the way explain, what you've done with the Germans we "loaned" you a few centuries ago? Because, that's what coming here now,

I can't tell for the whole number of Germans we "loaned" during Cathrine the Great times (she were German too, as you know). But at least, I can tell about one ethnic German who lived during the Peter the Great times. His name was Buchholz (Buchgolds, (sp?). He was the guy who founded my home city in 1716. And we respect him for that and treat him as our founding father (museum expositions, the square named after him, etc.). Russians and Germans explored Siberia back to back and that's great! (to prevent a further question from Ecthy - sorry, but you can't have your share of Siberia right now, , due to enormous investments we made in that region over the ages.)

a) does not speak German, and does not even try to learn it

Sh!t happens

b) does not look very Germanic (nothing racist, but you know there are certain distinctions between Germanics and Slavs, my Russian wife taught me to tell them, btw)

Sh!t happens

c) has none of the German traits (industriousness, punctuality, you know the attributes, that others attach to our people)

Sh!t happens

Well... if it comes to c), I am no German neither, my wife calls me a lentyaj (and right she is ), but at least I qualify for a) and b).

Since "lentyaj" stands for a "lazy as$" (the translation is for English speakers), the question arise - who is more German in your family you or your Russian wife?

[QUOTE]But that what lives in our neighbor village and calls itself "Germans from Russia", definitely qualifies neither for a), nor b) nor c). There may be

There may be exceptions, but that's the rule. And you probably know, that I can tell a Russian, when I see one.

My condolences.
The guys you got from Russia are not really Germans, but Russian Germans. Russia is the huge melting pot, the home of over 100 native natinalities (not to mention migrants). It's not surprising local Germans were "refined" during the years. What you got after collapse of the USSR was a bunch of non-German speaking, non-German looking and non-German behaving Germans.
You may consider that as Russian intervention. Too bad one of my friends is among those invaders. I'll probably never see him again. Whatever, it was his choice.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Serb
My condolences.
The guys you got from Russia are not really Germans, but Russian Germans. Russia is the huge melting pot, the home of over 100 native natinalities (not to mention migrants). It's not surprising local Germans were "refined" during the years. What you got after collapse of the USSR was a bunch of non-German speaking, non-German looking and non-German behaving Germans.
You may consider that as Russian intervention. Too bad one of my friends is among those invaders. I'll probably never see him again. Whatever, it was his choice.

No need to apologize. The guys we loaned to America got even worse tempers with the time.

Best wishes for your friend.