Dubai Is Nuts!!!!

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Ecthy
Blood-wise descendance is less important than cultural descendance.

Unfortunately Albert Speer can't even show a cultural linkage between 'Phoenicia', which as far as anyone can ascertain didn't exist as a single entity, and the modern day Lebanon.

His conception of Arab is as loose and baggy as he needs it to be, and why he should feel that the peoples who created the Cordoban and Abbasid Caliphates are lacking in heritage or culture, I don't know.

Me, I'd be proud of having been behind a culture that produced the House of Wisdom in Baghdad, or the observatories across Islamic world that furthered our knowledge of astronomy, or was responsible for Ibn Al Haytham's 'Optics'.


But no, Albert has to resurrect Ittabaal and Nebuchadnezzar, Sargon and Hatshepsut to rectify some terrible deficit that no-one else is aware of.

[Dinner]

The Assyrians I met in Iraq took great pains to point out that they were not Arabs.

[Ecthy]

Some American customer I came across in my job acted like he was educated just the other day.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Ecthy
Some American customer I came across in my job acted like he was educated just the other day.

Is he now a prized exhibit in the Alte Pinakothek ?

[Ecthy]

It was in Potsdam. He asked me about where the wall was, I told him (very close to where I work) and that the lane along the river only came into existance as a path for the guards in between the 2 walls.

[Gangerolf]

Dubai

pure evil

they should send their money to africa

[DanS]

Originally posted by Arcite
Was in Dubai last week and took this photo if the indoor ski hill...pretty amazing, if not a little tacky

There was a show on the Discovery Channel about how they constructed Ski Dubai. Pretty cool.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by molly bloom

Gosh, I couldn't possibly be making a point about wilful ignorance, stereotyping and stupidity, could I ?

Thats quite possible. Other interpretations are also possible. A pose of possible irony can also be used as cover for feelings meant seriously. Lesser types just say vile things, than retreat to "just kidding" when called on it. You are far too sophisticated for anything so blatant.

You were replying to Tuberski and Oerdin. Tuberski was in fact DEFENDING the value of recent Japanese achievements - hardly sounded Japanophile. And Oerdin is not a redneck, and is hardly a sheltered American. So your point about ignorance, stereotyping and stupidity was not apt. I suppose a point about European/UK stereotyping of Americans would not be apt in response to your post, now would it?

[Lawrence of Arabia]

Al kider

war on terra

nukiller weapons in eyerack

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
There are plenty of Jewish Arabs, even in Israel.

AFAIK the Mizrahi Jews in Israel do not identify as Arabs. While there are obviuous political reasons for this, theres also the fact that Arab is often used in the region for Arabic speaker, and few of them speak Arabic as a first language any longer.

For Mizrahi Jews who lived in Arab countries (hardly any left anymore) Im not sure. While most spoke Arabic, many were quick to learn European languages, esp in French North Africa, where large numbers became principally francophone. Im also not sure that 'arab' as an identity was well defined before the late 19th c rise of Arab nationalism.

[Proteus_MST]

Originally posted by Ecthy
Blood-wise descendance is less important than cultural descendance.

I agree.
I wouldn´t see someone living since 2 or 3 generations in another country as a member of the country he emigrated from anymore.
For example Donald Rumsfeld, nobody would see him as a german, although it was just his grandfather who emigrated from germany to USA.
I also see how much changes an emigration brings to the generation which emigrated, some relatives for example emigrated to canada only 30 years ago (starting a cottage parc in a nice area and being very successful with it)
and everytime they came to germany during these years you could see the changes (especially in their language, they developed a heavy accent during this time )

So, if for example the babylonians were culturally taken over by arabs, I´d think that within a few generations of babylonians getting influenced by the arab culture and spoeaking the arabian language IMHO they wouldn´t be babylonians anymore but arabs (unless their former culture would be strong enough to strongly influence the arab culture instead of the other way round )

(IMHO there´s only one case where the culture of a country wasn´t changed by foreign invaders and this is china. DUring the mongol occupation the chinese culture rather influenced the mongol culture and not the other way round, which lead to china surviving this time unharmed (although AFAIK the mongols started a dynasty of chinese emperors, but at this time these mongols already were assimilated by the chinese culture, so that at this time they should rather be seen as chinese rather than mongols)

[lord of the mark]

When Turks converted to Islam why didn't they (a non-Arab people) become, like the Christian Assyrians you mentioned, Arabs too ? Or the Iranians of the Sasanid Empire who converted, changed their script into an Arabic form of writing and used Arabic loanwords in their vocabulary ?

IIUC, the Iranians had a much more established and prestigious culture than those who had lived under the Byzantines - and Iran had kept its culture and identity strongly intact, whereas the cultural identify of Mesopotamia had been subject to all kinds of pressures under succeeding conquests by Persians, Greeks, Persians again, Romans, etc. By the time of the Arab conquest most Mesopotamians did NOT speak their ancient languages, but spoke Aramaic, the lingua franca of the Persian empire. Unlike the natives of Syria and Mesopotamia, the Iranians had a culture that "captured" their conquerors.

As for the Turks, they were themselves conquerors.

"I know several Muslim Egyptians who regard 'the Arabs' somewhat contemptuously because their own 'heritage' as Egyptians is so much more ancient and distinguished than that of the Arabs."

Yeah, Egyptians go back and forth. Under Nasser they were the proud leaders of the Arab world, but under Sadat they tried to emphasize a seperate identity. From the folks whom they shared so much with culturally, but who had become embarrassing to them. Not like that ever happens among other nations sharing a common language, eh Molly?

"Oddly enough you seem to gloss over the rather obvious point that when the much older, much richer Perso-Iranian culture superseded Arab culture under the Abbasid Caliphate none of the supoosedly now homogeneous Arab peoples became Persian or Iranian, despite using Persian court ceremony, poetry, art forms, clothing, architecture, science, medicine, cuisine- in short, most things that impinge on daily life directly or indirectly."

Hmmm. Didnt a lot of non-Arabs who lived under the Abbasids and succeeding regimes come to identify as Persians, despite not speaking Farsi (although often speaking a closely related language, like Kurdish, etc.)

And of course when the Seljuk and Ottoman Turks succeeded in their conquest of the area in question, the peoples don't seem to have become Turco-Persian, despite their new rulers being of Turkish origin."

Well IIUC a bunch of people in Asia Minor DID become Turkish. Identities in the Balkans were VERY complex, and certainly many of the "Turks" who ruled over the Arabs were actually Albanians, Circassians, etc. Of course as administrators they spoke Turkish (itself having absorbed many Arabic words) on a daily basis.

Seems to me its the Arabs who stood out as assimilating least to the Persians and Turks, (at least among the muslim subjects) probably due to the prestige of Arabic language and culture in the muslim world.

No, perhaps the least startling thing about this is that you choose to identify as an Arab out of political expediency, or obduracy.

ethnic identifications are often made on such basis.

Having failed to show that there was even a 'Phoenician' national identity, let alone a genetic grouping, you also miss the salient point- that the Arab League was making a political point out of Pan-Arab brotherhood.

Are we talking about Lebanon joining the Arab League in 1943? They did that for support against be swallowed up into "Greater Syria"

How long have United Arab Republics lasted ? Hardly any time at all, because the language of holy scripture and a common enemy still aren't enough to make all Arabs or 'Arabs' identify with each other.

True, but even when such states broke up, their continued to be the ability of regimes to appeal to each others citizens based on shared identities. The actual UAR lasted only 3 years before the Syrian military decided they were getting a raw deal (what would have happened if Nasser had chosen someone more competent than he did to administer Syria is an unknown of history) However after the breakup Egypt, Jordan, and Syria meddled intensively in each others politics, and Arab identity was key to that. (Im basing this on my reading of Michael Oran's "Six Days of War")

The loss of the six day war weakened pan arab nationalism in Egypt, leaving Egyptian nationalism to duke it out with pan-Islamism, though I think pan Arab nationalism is still an element in Egyptian politics.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by lord of the mark

You are far too sophisticated for anything so blatant.

Wow, thanks for the compliment I suppose.

Has it ever occurred to you that I can and do have more than one string to my bow ?

That just maybe, your interpretation (read: misreading) of my post might just be wildly off the mark, yet again ?

After all, it wouldn't be the first time, now, would it ?

So I'll explain.

A pose of possible irony can also be used as cover for feelings meant seriously.

No sheet. Yes, I seriously dislike ignorance and stereotyping, especially when it's done by ignorant people.

Let's see what I mean, shall we:

" I'm from Louisiana. We produce rice. We must go to the Japanese and say 'You no buy our rice, we no buy your cars.' "

The lovely David Duke.

Doesn't look like he has many Japanese friends, or ever learned any Japanese or travelled much in Japan, does it ?

Now Oerdin has actually been to Iraq, and yet managed to come out with this piece of propaganda:

I can honestly say that there are virtually no inventions or original scientific thoughts which originated from Arabia and instead Arabs just trafficed in other people's ideas The Arabs were little better then desert barbarians prior to 700 a.d.

Oerdin


Except of course as we've seen, the Nabataean Arabs, the Himyarites, the Marib Dam, Harran, the Ghassanids, Lakhmids and Palmyra would all seem to contradict him, wouldn't they ?


Now when I replied to Tuberski, I didn't poke fun at him personally, in fact, in response to his post, I showed how SOME Americans had earlier said the same kind of nonsense about the Japanese that Oerdin had come out with about the Arabs.

Gosh, Geronimo thought my point about the crass novel and film 'Rising Sun' was quite funny !

He must not be a, how did you put it ?

real American

eh ?

Imagine, how dare I lampoon the ignorance of some Americans without doing a survey of all anti-Japanese sentiment expressed anywhere in the world since time immemorial.

The very temerity...

Well Edith Cresson did say the Japanese were 'yellow dwarfs', but unfortunately poor Old or New Europe have still yet to come up with the kind of stellar contribution to international relations that 'Rising Sun' was, or ''The Coming War With Japan', or the C.I.A. sponsored report from June 1991 which described the trading partners & allies of the U.S.A. as:

"...creatures of an ageless, amoral, manipulative and controlling culture" who are conspiring to dominate the world. [...]... the 'rising sun' is coming -- the attack has begun."

Gollee, if that's how you view your friends what must you say about your enemies ?

I wonder though, how the EU managed to get all protectionist against Japan, without having Tammy Fay levels of vulgarity?

Oh, fer... just untwist your knickers why don't you ?

I don't mind you dragging in Tammy Faye (she already resembles BAD DRAG anyway) but your grotesque over-sensitivity to any criticism of anything remotely American is leading you to mix and match posts with no real connection.

Before Japan was the ogre, there was "la defie Americain"

The ogre to whom, is the point you miss. And, more to the point, created by and for whom.

[Dinner]

Alright Molly. Name the vast amounts of Scientific advancements which Arabs came up with instead of simply borrowed from others and then traded to third parties. Please enlighten me because the Arabs simply are not the fountain of all knowledge which some people here are attempting to make them out to be. Also please use specifics instead of the vague rubbish you posted above.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


Hmmm. Didnt a lot of non-Arabs who lived under the Abbasids and succeeding regimes come to identify as Persians, despite not speaking Farsi (although often speaking a closely related language, like Kurdish, etc.)

Not to my knowledge.

The House of Wisdom in Baghdad is mentioned as attracting Greeks, and Armenians and Persians, Hindus, Jews and pagan Arabs from Harran and so on. Persian culture not nationality or ethnicity conquered the Abbasid Caliphate, but the Abbasid Caliphate still remained a tolerant multi-cultural, multi-faith multi-ethnic state. What a bad example for the modern world...

The disparate elements of Arab cultures around the Middle East and Arabia (Roman and Hellenic influenced Petra and Palmyra, Neoplatonist pagan Harran, Monophysite Christian Ghassanids and Nestorian Lakhmids, Jewish Himyarites) meant there was no single unifying Arab culture, but certainly the poetry contests in Arabia proper were achieving the same kind of linguistic (if not cultural unity) that the Lutheran Bible or the King James Bible would manage to later on.

When the Arabs conquered the Sasanid Empire they were astonished at the riches and splendour and grandeur of the palace at Ctesiphon.

Having never completely overwhlemed the Byzantines, the relatively unsophisticated Arab armies had only the example of the Sasanid (and earlier Perso-Iranian cultures) culture to work from.

Thus, Persian literary styles and court ceremonial and learning would supplant nomadic Arab culture, especially in the great cities, and would work alongside some Hellenistic art (especially under the Umayyads) and a great deal of Hellenistic culture realting to philosophy and science.

The Seljuks and Ottomans and Safavids and Moghuls would all later benefit from this uptake of Persian culture, and especially the later translation of the Koran into Persian and the Persian literary & cultural renaissance.

As for the Turks, they were themselves conquerors.

I'm talking about the Turkish peoples who bordered the far reaches of the Sasanid Empire- the Arabs inherited them as enemies, but also worked to convert them to Islam. The Seljuks were converted before they invaded the Middle East.