iPod City: Apple criticized for factory conditions

[Dinner]

Originally posted by notyoueither
I think you missed his point about Cuba.

Here're two words: North Korea.

Just how much choice do you think the citizens of these fine countries get?

We hardly trade with North Korea now so I don't see there being a major change either way.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
You don't have an incentive, you have a massive stick you're going to whack them with if they don't immediately conform perfectly to Western values. More like a boomerang, because it's going to come back around and smack you in the face when you cut off most of the developing world from trade.

Mostof the developing world? Nonsense. Latin America (minus Cuba) are all democracies, there are many very large and very populous democracies in Asia, and several in Africa. When forced to chose they will enact worker protections if they haven't already. In fact, even in the developing world dictatorships aren't as common as you might think; the Arab world, much of Africa, Burma, China, North Korea, Cuba. Other then China there isn't a major trading partner on the list.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger

And then what? Hyperinflation in the US?

There will be an adustment period but capitalists being capitalists they will build factories in places such as India, eastern Europe, Latin America, and the democratic portions of east Asia & Africa.

The worst effects could be avoided by collectively phasing in the tarrifs over time this would also have the additional benifit of giving fence sitters time to make up their mind if they wanted in on the trade block or not.

Oil would have to be a special case. We'd have to let it in but luckily the producers would have to sell it to us since we'd be the only game in town.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Oerdin
We hardly trade with North Korea now so I don't see there being a major change either way.

North Korea is pretty much in the situation you want to put China in - cut off from the RoW. How much progress have we seen there? Same for Cuba, and how much progress have we seen there? Then look at China, a country that we brought out of global isolation in the 70's. How much progress have we made there?

Given those, isn't it obvious which solution is more effective?

[Jaguar]

Originally posted by Oerdin
Haha, don't you get it? It costs them time and effort but use nothing other then inflation which can be off set by production from other low cost countries like Latin America or Africa or India if they want to follow or rules,

I'm afraid Jaguar is guilty of having a small mind and not being able to think outside of the box.

At least my thoughts, inside-the-box or otherwise, make sense.

To answer your question, no, I don't get it at all. Read that sentence. Jesus ****ing Christ.

[MORON]

Oerdin: work conditions and wages are determined by MARKET FORCES.

Right now, enacting all those fancy legislation would only make companies move somewhere else without together with job losses and inefficiencies. When the labor market is "tight" enough that working conditional demands won't cost them in serious job or wage cuts, it would be pressured by the labor force. When such a movement starts, it is when the real battle begins.

You just watch, if China keeps its pace in growth the wage level is going to improve as they have been over the years. Its not going to be even, all that fair or fast, but its going to happen and the best thing to do is to allow it to happen and prevent any SNAFU that hijacks the system.

[snoopy369]

DanS is right, $50 is really quite low and probably errant. If they're making $50, it's probably post-tax, and take-home (as in, post-'rent').

These folks are sendng $50USD home per month to their starving rural families, which means that they can not starve. I have an odd feeling that $50USD lasts rather longer in China than it does in the US

Cutting off relations to them would:
A. Starve their poorest citizens
B. Cause a significant, regional or world war
C. Substantiate anti-west propaganda by the Chinese government
D. Kill all hopes for China peacefully becoming a modernized country
E. All of the above

The answer should be obvious ...

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Oerdin
There will be an adustment period but capitalists being capitalists they will build factories in places such as India, eastern Europe, Latin America, and the democratic portions of east Asia & Africa.

I am not sure about that. None of these have any respectable labour and environmental laws to speak of.

You think India has better labour and enviromental laws than the PRC? Think again. The Chinese laws are quite strict on paper. All they have to do is to get them enforced.

Originally posted by Oerdin
The worst effects could be avoided by collectively phasing in the tarrifs over time this would also have the additional benifit of giving fence sitters time to make up their mind if they wanted in on the trade block or not.

Tariffs imposed against another country just because they have lax labour and environmental laws aren't permitted under WTO IIRC. Since the US is a signatory of WTO it has to be obeyed. In fact, it ranks higher than domestic laws.

Also you are completely forgetting that, while the US is still the dominant country in the world, it's GDP shrank from 70% after WWII to about 20% today. That means, while you still have a big stick, the collective stick of the rest of the world is bigger than yours now. So unilaterally pushing things the US way don't seen to be such a hot deal anymore.

[Proteus_MST]

Originally posted by snoopy369
These folks are sendng $50USD home per month to their starving rural families, which means that they can not starve. I have an odd feeling that $50USD lasts rather longer in China than it does in the US

Reminds me of my voyage to L´viv, Ukraina,
where I did some translation work between Aleksandr Kalinichenko who was lecturer/researcher at a local research institute for sports in lviv and my archery club.
His job at the institute got him 100 $ per month.
But they had very low prices in the ukraina, for example german biology books from the DDR for just 5-10 pence per book,
Crimenan champagne for around 2-3 $ or Samowars, made by well known artisans 100 years ago for around 50$.

But they obviously had problems with the supply of food. In front of every bakery and butchery in the city you could see queues of customers which were around 10-20 m long.

O.K., this was around 12 years ago. But I think the situation won´t have changed much during the years.

[Urban Ranger]

US$50 is about median wage for that region, though taking away half for room and board is slimy.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by notyoueither
No, a depression that would make the last, 'great' one look like a boom.

And that's being optimistic. There is a reason that the the US trade deficit with China is so high... hint, it has something to do with the fact that we buy a LOT of stuff from there!

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger

Tariffs imposed against another country just because they have lax labour and environmental laws aren't permitted under WTO IIRC.

Please remind me. If the first world decided to withdraw from the WTO and impose new regulations the third world would be able to...?

[Kuciwalker]

See how much like themselves the first world has become.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Oerdin
If the first world decided to withdraw from the WTO and impose new regulations the third world would be able to...?

Assuming there is a provision in the WTO (formerly GATT) then a signatory can withdraw. Then said country is out of the structure, and must negotiate bilateral free trade treaties with individual countries.

Don't forget that The First World is not a monolithic block. Not even the US has a monolithic power structure. So don't expect them to move in tandem.

[notyoueither]

Actually, it could be expected for some countries or groups to form blocks that might include withdrawing from WTO in the face of currency manipulation and theft of intellectual property.

The EU is silent now, just wait til an EU corporation faces the level ot theft that MS does.