iPod City: Apple criticized for factory conditions

[Kuciwalker]

Trade helps people and is a powerful motivatove because it creates wealth. We are putting a condition on them becoming wealthy by saying you must become a democracy and respect human rights before we will trade with you. That helps everyone because it spreads human rights, it spreads democracy, and it takes that most basic of human desires (the desire for money) and says "if you want it you must protect human rights and honor democracy". That does more for the people living in dictatorships then a hundred years of our current policy of giving the dictators everything they want and requiring them to do nothing.

Right, the magical sanctions fairy will just instantaneously turn the PRC into a liberal democracy with strong environmental and labor laws.

[Dinner]

The Chinese people would then have an honest choice to make. They'd either have to go for democracy and wealth or continue supporting the status quo but the one party dictatorship would no longer be able to bribe people into accepting dictatorship in exchange for modest increases in standards of living. The choice would be between democracy and increased standards of living or loyality to the dictatorship but you couldn't have both. That would be a massive improvement.

[Kuciwalker]

One word: Cuba.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Oerdin
The Chinese people would then have an honest choice to make. They'd either have to go for democracy and wealth or continue supporting the status quo but the one party dictatorship would no longer be able to bribe people into accepting dictatorship in exchange for modest increases in standards of living. The choice would be between democracy and increased standards of living or loyality to the dictatorship but you couldn't have both. That would be a massive improvement.

Right. It's so much better to be oppressed and poor than oppressed and pretty well-off.

[Kuciwalker]

Maybe you'll sleep a little better at night, but tens of millions of Chinese will sleep more poorly because they just lost their jobs and can't feed their families.

[Dinner]

[SIZE=1]
Right, the magical sanctions fairy will just instantaneously turn the PRC into a liberal democracy with strong environmental and labor laws.

Nope, eventually the people will get feed up and rebel creating a more just society as we have seen over and over again in human history. In the mean time we have a billion Indians, half a billion Africans, and hald a billion Latin Americans who would love the chance to make our t-shirts, build our electronics, and provide manufacturing capacity. The question is do we care enough about our own values to pay $2 instead of $1.50 for a t-shirt if it means we spread democracy and human rights in the process. I think it is a price worth paying and that it is immoral that we support dictatorships to save a few pennies.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
Maybe you'll sleep a little better at night, but tens of millions of Chinese will sleep more poorly because they just lost their jobs and can't feed their families.

Then they should avocate for positive change. My job is to provide an incentive for nations to accept democracy and human rights; it is up to the people of those nations to determine their own destinies.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
One word: Cuba.

Stop being stupid. cuba has no access to world markets. We're talking about the world's democracies inacting free trade amongst each other and locking out evil dictatorships. Cuba is in no way part of this club. Were as 2/3-3/4 f the world's population is.

[notyoueither]

I think you missed his point about Cuba.

Here're two words: North Korea.

Just how much choice do you think the citizens of these fine countries get?

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Oerdin
Then they should avocate for positive change.

My job is to provide an incentive for nations to accept democracy and human rights; it is up to the people of those nations to determine their own destinies.

You don't have an incentive, you have a massive stick you're going to whack them with if they don't immediately conform perfectly to Western values. More like a boomerang, because it's going to come back around and smack you in the face when you cut off most of the developing world from trade.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Oerdin
Stop being stupid. cuba has no access to world markets.

That's rather the point. How much progress have they made since we stopped trading with them?

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Oerdin
Nope, eventually the people will get feed up and rebel creating a more just society as we have seen over and over again in human history.

Like in Iraq, another fine example

[notyoueither]

Your plan has the appeal of being simple. It has the draw back of being simple minded.

You are assuming that India, The US, Russia, France, England, Brazil, Germany would all share the same interests in trade.

Truth is there would be immense profits available for breaking the embargo. Selling garbage products to China for teak, or to isolated African countries for gold, diamonds, etc.

How about that oil, btw?

What do we do about the KSA, Iran, Syria, Egypt, etc?

Threaten to not play with them?

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Oerdin
...should have plenty of time to enforce the new labor laws.

It's not easy. Consider that a good number of Mexicans are working illegally in the US, surely you can see that it is easier said than done.

Originally posted by Oerdin
If they don't then BAM! Absolute embargo of anything remotely related to China.

And then what? Hyperinflation in the US?

[notyoueither]

No, a depression that would make the last, 'great' one look like a boom.