Gorbachev

[Lancer]

The last guy the evil empire really needed. The only thing worse would have been if Jimmy Carter somehow found himself at the head of the Supreme Soviet.

What would the world be like if the Soviet Union continued with hardliners instead of going all soft on us.

What if Putin had taken the helm of the Soviet Union instead of Gorbachev?

Also, how will historians look back on Gorbachev's time?

[BeBMan]

He wasn't a mass murderer like Stalin, and not as drunk as Yeltsin after him, so actually a vast improvement, soviet-leader-wise.

But then he was probably sent by the CIA to win the cold war - for the west

[Lancer]

He presided over the end of an empire. Not just the Soviet empire but parts of the Russian one that the Sovs inherited from a thousand or so years of Russian expansionism.

What a disaster for Mother Russia!

[Serb]

[VetLegion]

Soviet economy was faring badly at the period, but the market reforms of Gorbachov really killed it. If there was someone else instead of him the same would probably have happened. It wasn't only him who lost faith in socialism, it was the entire Soviet elite.

[Serb]

Originally posted by BeBro
He wasn't a mass murderer like Stalin,

Nobdy ever counted how many lives took the collapse of USSR (military conflicts at post-Soviet space, povetry, suicides, etc. and the most important factor - destruction of the USSR buried the balance of powers, now we have a superpower in the house, which is bombing and invading others at will. That's human costly, I think).

and not as drunk as Yeltsin after him , so actually a vast improvement, soviet-leader-wise.

Pff, what a big difference: first had no balls, the second had no brains.

But then he was probably sent by the CIA to win the cold war - for the west

Unfortunately he was not.

[Serb]

Originally posted by VetLegion
Soviet economy was faring badly at the period, but the market reforms of Gorbachov really killed it.

True.

If there was someone else instead of him the same would probably have happened.

No, if there was someone else, someone with balls and brains we would be like moder China today.

It wasn't only him who lost faith in socialism, it was the entire Soviet elite.

Soviet elite suked big time, it was degraded as hell and Gorby was a product of that elite. But if there was other leader, everything could be different now.

[VetLegion]

Originally posted by Serb
No, if there was someone else, someone with balls and brains we would be like moder China today.

It's possible, but I doubt it. USSR broke up into a number of countries with different leaders and in different positions and all of them expirienced a sharp economic contraction first and growth much slower than China's afterwards. If it was only about leaders, then certainly at least one "east european tiger" would have appeared. But even countries which had good performance, like Estonia or Slovenia, have grown at rates much slower than those of China.

[Serb]

Hardly one can expect appearence of "tigers" due to collapse of the country, it's a huge challenge for economy afterall. WP countries were pretty much tied with each other economically, not to mention republics of the USSR (which was like a huge factory where each republic was responsible for its own part of the job). With the death of the USSR those ties died as well.
If China collapsed instead of us, I dare to claim, there would be no any minor Chinese tigers today.

[VetLegion]

You have a point there.

[Barnabas]

Serb, when you hope the soviet union still existed in a way similar to modern china, do you wish the soviet union were a capitalist country with a dictatorship?

[GePap]

I think the Chinese leadership saw what happened with Gorbachev and for that reason have kept a hard line. Gorbi tried political reforms alongside economic reforms, thought his economic reforms were weak and ineffectual, and the political reforms unleashed the forces that brought the SU down.

Had he been more radical with economic reform and less with political reform, the SU might still be around.

That said, I think Gorbi would have faced far more internal party problems if he had tried radical economic reform, corruption in the SU was a runaway monster, and party bosses might have tried and succeeded in getting rid of Gorbi if he had tackled their little empires.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Brachy-Pride
Serb, when you hope the soviet union still existed in a way similar to modern china, do you wish the soviet union were a capitalist country with a dictatorship?

I wish Soviet Union existed as a single country, preferably with more market economy and more freedoms. Reforms were necsessary, but not the way how Gorby done.

[germanos]

It was offcourse the stupid Soviet generals that wasted all capital by staging their stupid coup.

It's far from certain that the USSR would have suffered the same downfall if Gorbachev would have been left to carry out his program. Now, the generals thought they could do better and instead launched Yeltsin to power

Gorbachev realized the Soviet system needed to get rid of its rigid structure. He wanted a slow and steady reform. It's the generals that blew it all up by wanting to revert to the years of past. Years that most soviets were tired of.

[Zkribbler]

Gorby inherited a sinking economic ship. He didn't have a whole lot of options.

China has tried to escape from the situtation by converting from a Soviet-economy to a neo-feudalistic economy. If it ever switched over to a free-market economy and becomes a land of opportunity, whoa nellie!

germanos's post advances an idea I haven't heard before -- essentially, that the failed coup attempted pre-empted any further attempts at a soft landing for the Soviet economy. I'll have to ponder on that for awhile.