Making It Hard For Immigrants To Get By

[DaShi]

Originally posted by Ramo

Non sequitur? Then where did this come from

The point was that the American nation is suppoed to be international and ideological.

But the US isn't like that. It's composed of many ethnic groups united by a unique American culture.

Why just Spanish forms? Why not Japanese forms as well? Why not French forms?

If there's a huge amount of Japanese or French speakers who lack English fluency, there's no reason not to. It's about pragmatism, rather than superiority about specific languages.

It is about pragmatism. A national language is far more pragmatic than not. It doesn't mean that other languages are forbidden. It just creates a language that all Americans can share. The Senate resolutions will still allow for multi-lingual forms but establish English as a necessary requirement for citizenship.

A national language establishes a common language.

No. It doesn't. That's totally absurd. This is part of that magic that I was talking about.

Nor is a national language necessary for a common langauge (see the US for the past few centuries).

What you don't seem to understand is that the Senate resolution is going to change very little. English has been the national language of the US for the past few centuries. It's only being acknowledged as such legally now for policital means.

The following measure does protect already established multi-lingual services and treats English as the common language of the US.

Yes, Salazar obviously disagreed with Inhofe, and undermined his Amendment to a great extent (and now only expansion of federal services in other languages is prevented). The point remains, that the Inhofe Amendment is ultimately what the National Languagers wanted, and the Salazar Amendment is simply a tamer version of the same principle.

Your just lumping people into groups that you define. "All 'National Languagers' want this."

Why don't you say what you want in this regards? Because where is the incentive to learn English, if everything is provided in other languages? How pragmatic is it to divide our schools and other institutions by language? How does that promote multi-cultural unity? What I see is segregation by language.

[Caligastia]

Ramo -

Although English has not officially been made the national language, the U.S. govt has always treated it as if it were. Am I to understand that you are in favor of a common language, but not an official national language? If so, how do you expect a common language to emerge from a polyglot society?

[KrazyHorse]

Re: Canada

Originally posted by pchang
Canada has more land than the US and only 1/9th the population. They've got tons of room for more immigrants. They should be letting in 9 times more people than the US.

If the immigrants feel like settling in northern Quebec that's cool with me.

[GePap]

Originally posted by DaShi


Yes, but run by a western government. And despite what they identify with, the culture of modern Mexico is entirely different from that mesoamerican cultures. Until I see some Sun god worshiping and human sacrifices, you ain't gonna convince that "old" culture is static and thus a reason to treat the US differently.

Since when the hell does government type equal culture?
Would you say that China and Japan are western because they both have western styles of government??!!??



Second, Mesoamerican culture is not simply about human sacrifice, anymore than Western culture is about witchburning.

I aslo agree with English being the national language of the US. Mostly because the majority of the population speaks English. This was the same reason that PuTongHua became the national language of China, despite there being a multitude of languages spread throughout the country. A national language unifies the country regardless of race and background and allows a distinctly American culture to flourish. When people are forced to live in Spanish communities or Chinese communities, factionalism results and can lead to hostilities like the riots in France last year. Immigrants needn't lose their culture when entering the US, but to become American citizens they need be able to join American culture as well. This unifying factor is especially important in a nation of immigrants.

A "national language" assumes there to be a "nation". There is no American nation, in the ethnic sense, and whether there is one in the cultural sense is also in doubt in my mind. The US is about universalist values, ideals valid regardles of language.

Certainly it helps to run a state in which there is a common language, and everyone should endevour to learn it if only for their own personal achievement. But America is the same in English, or Spanish, or French, or whatever language. That is what has allowed American culture to spread so widely, because it does not rely on a single language to make it work.

[Kuciwalker]

There is no American nation

BS. We have nationalists, for chrissake!

[DaShi]

Originally posted by GePap


Since when the hell does government type equal culture?
Would you say that China and Japan are western because they both have western styles of government??!!??

Because its the government that makes the decision whether or not to allow people in. The government represents (in theory) the people of the country, and they make the decision whether or not to allow immigrants. Culture can only determine how a country will react to immigrants. It does not decide immigration policy itself, the people do. This is the flaw in your argument. You are making up rules that are specific only for the US.

Now I never said that the government equalled culture. You made that up to try to give yourself an argument you could win. This is exactly what you tried to do in the China debate we had awhile back, and I called you on it then too. You're made up ideas aren't going to fly here.

Certainly it helps to run a state in which there is a common language, and everyone should endevour to learn it if only for their own personal achievement. But America is the same in English, or Spanish, or French, or whatever language. That is what has allowed American culture to spread so widely, because it does not rely on a single language to make it work.

American culture isn't spread by being multi-lingual (snicker)? Then why are the French so afraid of the English language? Anyway, see the above posts that respond to your response. It's all been covered already.

[GePap]

Originally posted by DaShi


Because its the government that makes the decision whether or not to allow people in. The government represents (in theory) the people of the country, and they make the decision whether or not to allow immigrants. Culture can only determine how a country will react to immigrants. It does not decide immigration policy itself, the people do. This is the flaw in your argument. You are making up rules that are specific only for the US.

What the hell does that have to do with the discussion of whether Mexicans consider themselves the continuation of Mesoamerican culture?

I know, absolutely nothing.

Government is run by people (shocking, I know), people with the prejudices and mores of the soviety, many of which are based on culture. Those governing are not free of those they govern, even in a dictatorship.

Now I never said that the government equalled culture. You made that up to try to give yourself an argument you could win. This is exactly what you tried to do in the China debate we had awhile back, and I called you on it then too. You're made up ideas aren't going to fly here.

No. I argue one thing, you try to debate something tangential at best, thinking you have made a point.

American culture isn't spread by being multi-lingual (snicker)? Then why are the French so afraid of the English language? Anyway, see the above posts that respond to your response. It's all been covered already.

If American culture came in Spanish the French would fear it too. American culture is not defined by English.

[Kuciwalker]

If American culture came in Spanish the French would fear it too. American culture is not defined by English.

And if the French spoke Spanish, then it'd be French. Your point is inane; it's not that the language we speak is English, it's that English is the language we speak.

[Sprayber]

Originally posted by GePap


Legal huh? So I assume you have never onece, EVER, broken a law. You alwys follow the speed limit, have never littered, or broken any law, right?

I don't buy the "breaking the law" arguement, because people break the law all the time, in fact, many "law-abiding" citizens revel in their minor acts of lawbreaking. These people have committed a crime, and some punishment is fine, but to act as if this were simply a "law and order" situation is bull. It is all about whether this country will allow immigrants in as we once did. Back in the day all you needed was a ticket, proof you were not sick, intent on working, and that was it. There was always nativist sentiment and anti-immigrant sentiment, but it was not until the immigrants stopped looking like mos Americans that this sentiment won the upper hand.

At the end of the day this is not a debate on legality, but race and culture.

For you it is about Race and Culture because you want it to be. It's what drives all issues in your mind. In my mind it's a question of legality. Let all come to this country who want to, but let them do it legal and in an orderly fashion. It's that simple. I don't care what they look like GePap weither you believe it or not.

[Sprayber]

Originally posted by Ted Striker


Never stopped you before.

Hypocrisy at it's finest.

What goes around comes around

w00t for the win!

What are you even talking about. Do you even know. It's like you have a random Ted post generator that just spits stuff out.

[JimmyCracksCorn]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker

There is no American nation

BS. We have nationalists, for chrissake!

That term is used by people who don't know what a nation is. For instance, the US is not a nation-state while, arguably, a country like Ireland is.

The US is not a nation.

[JimmyCracksCorn]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker

If American culture came in Spanish the French would fear it too. American culture is not defined by English.

And if the French spoke Spanish, then it'd be French. Your point is inane; it's not that the language we speak is English, it's that English is the language we speak.

But clearly English isn't the language "we" speak, at least not everyone, or else this wouldn't be an issue. To say that English ought to be the language everyone speaks is one thing, but please make the distinction between what you think should be the case and what actually is.

[Cyclotron]

Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn
That term is used by people who don't know what a nation is. For instance, the US is not a nation-state while, arguably, a country like Ireland is.

The US is not a nation.

In what way do you define nation such that Ireland qualifies and America does not?

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn
That term is used by people who don't know what a nation is. For instance, the US is not a nation-state while, arguably, a country like Ireland is.

The US is not a nation.

Maybe not ethnically, but culturally there very much is an American nation.

[JimmyCracksCorn]

Originally posted by Sprayber


For you it is about Race and Culture because you want it to be. It's what drives all issues in your mind. In my mind it's a question of legality. Let all come to this country who want to, but let them do it legal and in an orderly fashion. It's that simple. I don't care what they look like GePap weither you believe it or not.

Then you are an exception. I find it hard to believe that if it were Britons and Anglo-Canadians crawling across the border that this would be nearly as big of an issue.

People aren't agitated by this simply because laws and are being broken but rather because they feel the cultural, racial and linguistic (and ultimately political, as DanS has expressed concern over in the past) fabric of the United States is being altered and that they have little say in the matter (which is true).