macromedia.com

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Sn00py
UR, I have been building websites for coming to 12 years now, I disagree with everything you just said.

I have no idea what you have been doing, but...

12 years ago is 1994. In 1994 most people had no idea of the Web, and people used 19.2kb modems to dialup for connections. There were no automated tools doing websites and you had to do all the coding by hand.

Originally posted by Sn00py
1. You would have to be the fastest typer just to catch up to professional webdesigner doing it in design view, and I still think the design view guy would win. Think about it, by the time you have finished typing < table > he is already adding the row and column numbers in the table window. It's just obvious.

I don't know about you, but doing static contents is not feasible except for very small websites. Most likely the prototype design will be refined, then put through a CMS, or at least some PHP (etc.) script.

And for very small websites the amount of time you spend on doing the design, as opposed to putting in contents, is small. There are editors that allows you to insert tags easy, and I am a fast typist.

Originally posted by Sn00py
And you say you have a hard time getting it to work for IE? WHY?

Because IE botches CSS? Not only it botches CSS but each version botches it differently?

Com'on, what kind of Web designer doesn't know this?

Originally posted by Sn00py
IE is great! Honestly, I don't know what the praise is for Firefox, IE's compatibility and stability DOES surpass Firefox in this regard, I know this because I have to use both extensively for testing, for some reason, 1 out of every 5 websites I build, I run into a basic problem that Firefox can't understand and I have to go around searching for an answer, some which I have discovered do not even have a solution. But IE, well, it just knows the language, and it just works.

IE's compatibility? With what?

Do you know the problems you have encountered are very likely to be Dreamweaver (or whatever you were using) generating IE-specific code, so it fouls Firefox? Try putting that stuff through a validator (HTML, CSS).

[MarkG]

Originally posted by Sn00py
Why must webdesigners pretend to be "better than the rest" by saying they create their websites all out in code? So what if you know the code? No professional web designer is going to build their website by typing it all out in code view, unless they wanted to refresh their memory or do it just for the hell of it. It takes far far too long to create a website that way; what would normally take me a few hours, would end up taking about 5 days.

if you're building a static website you might be able to do it fully in dreamweaver

but when you do dynamic sites you'll have to write html by hand one way or the other

[FrostyBoy]

Sorry UR, you're right, I meant since 1996, I don't know how I came up with 12 years.

I have never had a problem with CSS for both IE and FireFox, I use DW to do most of the work, and I just add in the rest later, so I disagree that you have to type out the code *entirely* by hand just for dynamic stuff.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
I honestly don't see what the Justice Department was thinking when they let the two largest design software companies merge. They have like, 99% of the market. How is competition served?

Probably because the 'market' isn't defined as narrowly as "design software companies". It's probably more like software industry, which, IMO, is a good thing, or else you'd see some very strange stuff.

[Hueij]

And Fireworks is a joke, Macromedia considers it to be one of their "minor" products. It's more like a toy, infact I think it was for free when it first came out, not sure if it still is or not.

Something tells me you have never used Fireworks for designing pages. I used to use Photoshop but since I found out about FW I never looked back.

And don't get me started about IE6. What a piece of crap. And now, when I learned how to hack IE's most blatant bugs, here comes the IE7 team telling me to get rid of all of them and replace them with conditional statements.

[MarkG]

Originally posted by Hueij
And don't get me started about IE6. What a piece of crap. And now, when I learned how to hack IE's most blatant bugs, here comes the IE7 team telling me to get rid of all of them and replace them with conditional statements.

that's why you must never use browser-specific hacks...

[chequita guevara]

Fireworks is indeed amazing at designing pages, but the resulting code and bloat is ongodly.

UR, I can code far faster in Dreamweaver than in emacs. Autofinishing code rocks! All emacs can do faster is cut the end of a line. Meh.

Snoopy, there is no decent standards compliant WYSWIG editor. All of them generate table based designs, which are very, very bad. The Code bloat is horrendous, and if you want to do a redesign, you have to recode the whole page. With CSS I can reskin a page in no time, but all the editors do crap CSS in WYSIWYG. www.csszengarden.com shows how much more powerful CSS is for web design, and you really need to code by hand to do that.

As for IE, try going to www.positioniseverything.net and then tell me how great IE is. It can't handle XHTML served as XML, only served as HTML. If you put the XML code first, it throughs IE into quirksmode, which means the box model is all screwed up. I'm working on an internal app for which we are only supporting IE6, and that is the major cause of all my headaches, since I have to add extra code to do simple **** like rounded corners and CSS frames, which I could otherwise with a couple lines of code, as per the standards.

Now, as far as IE7 goes, I'm very happy with that, but it's not out yet, except in beta, and it isn't supporting CSS3.

[DaShi]

Com'on, what kind of Web designer doesn't know this?

Come'on, everyone knows this!

[chequita guevara]

Hardly non-sequitors, DaShi.

[DaShi]

Oh alright, perhaps not all of them. :Pout: But he's still wrong.

[FrostyBoy]

Originally posted by Hueij

And Fireworks is a joke, Macromedia considers it to be one of their "minor" products. It's more like a toy, infact I think it was for free when it first came out, not sure if it still is or not.

Something tells me you have never used Fireworks for designing pages. I used to use Photoshop but since I found out about FW I never looked back.

And don't get me started about IE6. What a piece of crap. And now, when I learned how to hack IE's most blatant bugs, here comes the IE7 team telling me to get rid of all of them and replace them with conditional statements.

I have, and it sucked, but then again, I have not touched it since I first used it, which was a long time ago, I have no idea what it is like now, but it looked like MM's poor attempt at releasing something similar to Photoshop.

Anyway, Photoshop, if you are a bloody good at using it, is more than sufficient for creating website templates.

I will have a look at Fireworks later to see if they have made any major changes, but I am a loyal Photoshopper.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by DaShi
Oh alright, perhaps not all of them. :Pout: But he's still wrong.

Now, now, he's not wrong just because he's Urban Ranger.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Sn00py
I think [Fireworks] was for free when it first came out, not sure if it still is or not.

It wasn't a Macromedia product when it first came out (neither was Flash for that matter). IIRC, it was just a little app for making animated gifs. In any event, the programmed evolved quite a bit and is very handy for making very quick edits without having to pull up Photoshop of ImageReady everytime. Its integration with Dreamweaver makes for extremely fast editting on the fly. It also has better PNG support than Adobe's products, but IE won't support full alpha transparency without using proprietary code.

[DaShi]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


Now, now, he's not wrong just because he's Urban Ranger.

Not just because of that. But that should always be the first clue.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Sn00py
I will have a look at Fireworks later to see if they have made any major changes, but I am a loyal Photoshopper.

Right tool for the right job. Photoshop is awesome! I went to the Photoshop User Conference in SoBe this year. Man, I want to try so many new things I learned, but for your average web work, PShop is most definately overkill. Like swatting a fly with a multitool.