All things Belgian

[lord of the mark]

really i was thinking of this before the news of violence and stuff. Ive been playing Victoria as Belgium, and find it interesting. and weve had some other references to Belgium on other threads.

For ex, before I played Victoria, I didnt know that the saxophone was invented by a Belgian, Adolphe Sax.

And maybe you need a change of subject.

So lets discuss

a. Belgian identity and modern history
In the 1830s it made sense for Catholic Belgians to not want to be under an anticatholic Dutch king, and for liberals to not want to be under an authoritarian one. and for Catholic Walloons to prefer an independent Belgium to a secularist France.

But the 1830s are gone, and the Netherlands are different, and France isnt more secular than Belgium (or is it?) OTOH both Flemings and Walloons had a seperate history since the 1500s from their neighbors - did that create a distinct identity? Or did a different economic structure (that lovely early industrialization, that makes playing as BEL in Vickie so much fun) play a role?

b. Later Belgian political history - Katolike and Liberale? The "meeting party' WTF was that about? And the socialists of course.

Rexists? Oh dear?

Famous for corruption? Looking at , say, wiki, your political history sounds deliciously complex and vicious.


c. Anything else - french fries, waffles, beers, the usual.

[Sandman]

They were responsible for unimaginable atrocities in the Belgian Congo. Leopold II is probably one of the most evil men who has ever lived - top ten material, in fact.

And Tintin.

[VetLegion]

So far we have that Belgians are...

- people without identity
- people who commited attrocities in Congo

Carry on, carry on.

[VetLegion]

I'll add that Stella Artois is not that good beer either. It's not bad, but it's not good either. It's somehow... Belgian.

[VetLegion]

And for the third post in the row, I must salute you for playing Vicky lotm. I like complex, but that isn't complex, it's boring

[Arrian]

Stella's AWFUL beer. I'd rather drink Bud.

-Arrian

[Snotty]

stellas a good lager, perfect for getting you **** faced

***** of a hangover though

[lord of the mark]

somehow this isnt going where I wanted it too.


Im sure there are other Belgian beers.

Yes, I know about Leopold. I read "Scramble for Africa"

Vickie is fun, in its own special way. But thats something I thank the Swedes for, not the Belgians.

[Arrian]

somehow this isnt going where I wanted it too.

I'm sorry, man.

I plead "it's 4:30 on a Friday." as a defense.

-Arrian

[DanS]

Just like other places, you have Belgian beers that you might prefer and those that you might not prefer. On average, the beer is of high quality, though.

[Imran Siddiqui]

I really enjoy Chimay Trappist Ale, made by Belgian monks

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bi%C3%A8res_de_Chimay

http://www.chimay.com/www/chimay/site8/en/a_abbaye/a0_frameset.htm

[Colon™]

LOTM: the role of the Catholics vs Protestants dichotomy is probably overstated. Though religious freedom played a role (in the issue of schools), the northern Netherlands had (and still has) a very sizeable Catholic minority and the south had and still has its share of protestants as well. A more important factor probably was the fact that the elite in the southern netherlands was francophone (in both parts of the country) and they were secluded from the administration.

It's not correct to speak of the Flemings and the Walloons the way you're doing in the context of pre-Belgian history. Historical (medieval) Flanders was situated in what would now be the western half of modern-day Flanders, plus territories in modern-day Netherlands and modern day France (Dunkirque and Lille were both Flemish cities for instance). East of Flanders you had Brabant (which consisted of the cities of Antwerp and Brussels and extended well into modern-day Netherlands, up to the Rhine) , Liege (a large bit of which was situated in modern day Flander), Haunait (dito), Limburg and Luxembourg as the main territories. No such thing as a medieval Wallonia existed. A Flamingant will furiously deny it but what it means to "Flemish" today has little historical grounds beyond Belgian history post-1830.
Also, it wasn't until the Austrian era (during the 18th century) when the southern Netherlands got a unified administration of any significance. Before that it was just a bunch of separate territories who's only bond was that of the monarch. Regionalism was deeply rooted and territories guarded their privileges stridently.

But I haven't answered your question yet: is there a Belgian identity? I don't know to be honest. Is there an Italian identity? Is there a Spanish one?
I think there are a lot of similarities between Italy and Belgium as a matter of fact. Both were extremely rich regions during the medieval ago, but also very scattered ones. Both had and still have deeply rooted regionalism. Both didn't came into being as nation-states until late in history. Like there didn't seem be much of a notion of "being Belgian" prior to Belgium's foundation, there also didn't seem to be much of a notion of "being Italian" prior to Italy's foundation. Italy even seems to have an equivalent of "Flanders" (in the modern sense) in "Padania", which has equally little historical precedence. The main difference between Belgium and Italy of course is that it doesn't have that lingual dichotomy that exists in Belgium...

[Hueij]

Ah, Belgium...

Land of Herge, Franquin, Jije, Morris, Peyo and all the other Grand-Masters

[MOBIUS]

Originally posted by Snotty
stellas a good lager, perfect for getting you **** faced

***** of a hangover though

Yeah, they don't call it 'wife-beater' for nothing...

However Stella bought in the UK is NOT Belgian, being brewed in the UK...

'Reassuringly Expensive' my arse - it's because they're ripping you off because you're too dumb to realise it's brewed in your own country! (Not aimed at you Snotty, but 'people')

In Belgium it is the cheap piss of the country, just like no self-respecting Aussie would ever drink Fosters - the triumph of marketing over common sense...

Nope, there's gazillions of awesome beers in Belgium such as the Trappist ones as Imran correctly points out, of which I still have a few from Orval and Westmalle left in my fridge...:beer:

Some other awesome Belgians not already mentioned include Victor Horta, Rene Magritte, Peter Paul Ruebens, Jean-Claude Van Damme...

[Last Conformist]

There's quite a few good Belgian beers, but Stella Artois isn't among them.