From the Liberal Media: Ben Franklin rolls over in grave.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Ramo

http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2006/05/federal_source_.html

Right. Absolutely no chance that this program could be abused.

Phone records are in the public domain and are routinely examined by law enforcement already. That long preceded the NSA program. This has been going on for more than 100 years.

[Ramo]

The Attorney General's statist opinion is worth jack **** in terms of determining legality.

And Congress certainly didn't approve. That's a bald assertion. Jay Rockefeller, the ranking minority member of the Senate Intel Cmte. said this about the first NSA domestic spying program that was leaked,

“For the last few days, I have witnessed the President, the Vice President, the Secretary of State, and the Attorney General repeatedly misrepresent the facts.

“The record needs to be set clear that the Administration never afforded members briefed on the program an opportunity to either approve or disapprove the NSA program. The limited members who were told of the program were prohibited by the Administration from sharing any information about it with our colleagues, including other members of the Intelligence Committees.

“At the time, I expressed my concerns to Vice President Cheney that the limited information provided to Congress was so overly restricted that it prevented members of Congress from conducting meaningful oversight of the legal and operational aspects of the program.

“These concerns were never addressed, and I was prohibited from sharing my views with my colleagues.

“Now that this issue has been brought out into the open, I strongly urge the Senate Intelligence Committee to immediately undertake a full investigation into the legal and operational aspects of the program, including the lack of sufficient congressional oversight.”

http://www.senate.gov/~rockefeller/news/2005/pr121905a.html

No doubt a similar situation existed with the recently outed NSA program.

[Ramo]

Phone records are in the public domain and are routinely examined by law enforcement already. That long preceded the NSA program. This has been going on for more than 100 years.

A lot of things have changed since when Hoover joined the FBI. Women can get contraception, black people are now able to eat in any restaurant, etc.

Phone companies are legally able to turn over records to the gov't only under very specific circumstances. See the Stored Communications Act.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by Ned


Phone records are in the public domain and are routinely examined by law enforcement already. That long preceded the NSA program. This has been going on for more than 100 years.

But we are supposed to believe that use of NSA resources with their multi terrabyte systems are teh only means required to pull off this feat of nefarious intrusion. Why it has to be the Bush ordering the NSA to pull this off. Heck ABC says so.

I can just see the conversation now.

Bush - dem damn reporters at ABC, NY Times and WaPo keep leaking precious secrets something has to be done and done now. Ideas? Iwanna know who they are talking to.

Cheney - Well we have a secret signal intelligence organization called the NSA.

Rummy - If you have them report into the defense department I'll see what I can do.

Powell - I think you can get phone records off the internet for like $160 bucks per cell phone number.

Rummy - STFU Noob

Bush - That settles it. Call Meyers and see that he gets the best and brightest working on it pronto. Spare no expense.

It had to have gone down just like that, because there was no other way to get that type of information.

[Ramo]

I still don't see how a practice that ought to be illegal (pretexting is already illegal for financial transactions, and legislation has been introduced to make it illegal for phone conversations) somehow mitigates the civil liberties problems with the NSA program.

[MRT144]

the biggest problem i have with the whole NSA thing is the ability of the federal government to block investigations into itself under the guise of security. essentially circumventing any oversight.

[Zkribbler]

I heard one pundit over the weekend opine that this issue acts as a Rorshack Test. If you trust the Bush Adminstration to use the info for the War on Terror, you're for it. If you believe the Bush Adminstration is out to trample civil liberties, then your against it.

[Kuciwalker]

... duh.

btw, it's a Rorschach test.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by Ramo
I still don't see how a practice that ought to be illegal (pretexting is already illegal for financial transactions, and legislation has been introduced to make it illegal for phone conversations) somehow mitigates the civil liberties problems with the NSA program.

There are apparently many things you don't see. Such as the idiocy of trying to tie the NSA datamining story to legit criminal investigations.

A) You posted the FBI investigation of CIA leaks story as if it were a part of the NSA data mining story. OOOOOH big conspiracy. NOT. Clearly this is complete idiocy. The CIA leaks that are being investigated were of classified material and the governement is concluding an investigiation including requests for phone records of reporters in order to determine who at the CIA they may have been talking to. Legal and required by law for the telecos to hand over those records in order to determine who at the CAI is breaking the law and divulging classified info. Be advised after this, if no fruit is borne, they can, and most probably will, go the grand jury route and compel the reporters to divulge sources ala Judith Miller upon pain of contempt of court. Given the two, compelling teleco's to hand over call records is probably a lessor of two evils.


B) You clearly have no sense of proportion that it would require NSA assets to complete such a routine search. But of course we are lead to beleive by you that this all tied into NSA datamining. What a laugh.

[Ramo]

A. No. I never claimed any such thing. I know your reading comprehension skills are pathetic, but this post of yours is really sad. I was pointing out that datamining would be an effective tool in cracking down on whistleblowers, considering this Admin's jihad against people in the CIA who are leaking illegal and repugnant programs to the press. Note that ABC's source wasn't talking about a single reporter's records, but implied the news bureau's in general (along with the NYT and WaPo). Further, note that switching cell phones isn't going to be too effective a defense if the gov't is nabbing cell phone records from phone companies themselves.

B. Again, since you're unable to read, I said that these records could potentially be misused to this end. I don't see how an NSA database of phone records cannot be used in this capacity. The computing power needed to analyze such an insignificant subset of the data is nothing compared to the pattern analyzing algorithms that the NSA would be using.

And of course you would believe that jihads against whistleblowers are legitimate criminal investigations...

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Ohh that is the worst case of backtracking I have heard to date.

How could I ever have interpreted the article statement

We do not know how the government determined who we are calling, or whether our phone records were provided to the government as part of the recently-disclosed NSA collection of domestic phone calls.

and then your hysterical affirmation of

Right. Absolutely no chance that this program could be abused.

as meaning the program of the topic thread, namely NSA datamining, wasn't the issue in question.

Pitiful even for you.

[Ramo]

It is the issue in question. I was showing how the Admin using the acquisition of phone records of entire news bureaus to track down whistleblowers makes the recently leaked NSA program worrisome.

But thanks for demonstrating that I did not say that this specific program necessarily was necessarily used in terms of combing through these reporters' records. There's a reason why I used the conditional tense. Try to keep up with at least a second grade reading level...

Sad Ogie, sad.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by Ramo
Further, note that switching cell phones isn't going to be too effective a defense if the gov't is nabbing cell phone records from phone companies themselves.

But according to the undisclosed Federal officer that was his recommendation hence even more evidence that the ohhh sooo scary datamining wasn't employed.

B. Again, since you're unable to read, I said that these records could potentially be misused to this end.

Gee you did. Let's see where that might have been?

1st posting in this thread.

Right. Absolutely no chance that this program could be abused.

The implication here is that the article above this ohh soo clever insight represents an abuse and moreover represents use of the NSA datamining. Considering it is part and parcel of a criminal investigation, nope strike 1, as these kinds of activities germaine to the full investagation are lawful.

then there was the second posting

I'm not sure why this is supposed to comfort you, but alright...

I'm not seeing it there either.

Perhaps its in the 3rd/4th one

The Attorney General's statist opinion is worth jack **** in terms of determining legality.

And Congress certainly didn't approve. That's a bald assertion. Jay Rockefeller, the ranking minority member of the Senate Intel Cmte. said this about the first NSA domestic spying program that was leaked,

........


No doubt a similar situation existed with the recently outed NSA program.

5th posting perhaps

A lot of things have changed since when Hoover joined the FBI. Women can get contraception, black people are now able to eat in any restaurant, etc.

Phone companies are legally able to turn over records to the gov't only under very specific circumstances. See the Stored Communications Act.

Its gotta be in the 6th one then

I still don't see how a practice that ought to be illegal (pretexting is already illegal for financial transactions, and legislation has been introduced to make it illegal for phone conversations) somehow mitigates the civil liberties problems with the NSA program.

Yep its absolutely clearly in the 6th one after all you mentioned problems with the NSA program there.

(that was sarcasm in case you didn't notice)

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Regardelss of whether your claim stands one way or the other of what you intended to say verses what I read, clearly there was per your own admission an attemtp to tangentially tie activities such as the NSA datamining (illegal and scary) to abuses such as the inept example you provided.

Inept because the use of phone records in that particular instance is warranted to aid in classsified information leak investigations.

pwnd nine ways to Sunday you are.

[Ramo]

Wow, you really are intent on proving the obvious. In case you missed the last post, "It is the issue in question..."

Inept because the use of phone records in that particular instance is warranted to aid in classsified information leak investigations.

An entire news bureau's phone records? I'd like to see the judge who would agree with that insane interpretation of the law.