The Left simply loves dictators

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Ned


I don't believe he was all that exasperated. He was gruding.

Well Hitch DOES drink alot. Still I wouldnt have thought even he would have gotten into gruding.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Re: Re: Re: Re: The Left simply loves dictators

Originally posted by Victor Galis


Or maybe he grew up I was conservative once, back when I was young and naive; well, maybe it was a knee-jerk reaction against communism.

Typically people are at there most liberal persuasion immediately upon graduating what with their high minded ideals and all. It takes a period of time to become so jaded that you fit comfortably into the old codger status of a conservative.

[Victor Galis]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The Left simply loves dictators

[QUOTE] Originally posted by lord of the mark

Originally posted by Victor Galis

They ran a better, cleaner campaign. I totally believe Hamas won by not being Fatah and by actually caring about the people (or claiming to). Then Bush immediately decided to cut off aid and try to strangle the new democratically elected government all while spouting rhetoric about democracy in the Middle East. I don't think he gets the fact that if these were democracies, the Arabs would not somehow magically start liking us.

You miss the point. Fatah got to be what it is by being in power undemocratically. Authoritarianism is like drug addiction - withdrawl is painful, but the longer you stay on it, the harder it is to quit. And yes we cut off aid - so did Europe as well. Being democratic doesnt give you the right to support terror against a neighbor, or to end the peace process. The Pals have the democratic right to elect whom the want, and we have the democratic right to cut off aid. Aid is NOT a right. I dont know about Bush personally, but clearly there are folks in the admin, and plenty of democratization supporters outside, who understand that democracy wont mean the election of people like us. But it has a better chance than supporting tyrants, who only make them hate us more.

So basically, you're saying that given the choice between horrible Fatah corruption and something truly new and different, they should have just gone with the old because Hamas doesn't like Israel.

You think the MB couldn't trounce the opposition? Heck, even in America the GOP can use religion to make an issue out of small BS things like gay marriage, so and steer the debate away from Iraq. Never underestimate the power of fanatics.

I rather doubt that the secular opposition in Egypt would call for gay marriage, or the complete secularization of the state. You do realize the Egyptian state is not completely secular under Mubarak, dont you?

Well, the issues would be different of course, but the tactics are the same, aren't they? Making an issue out of something that isn't, then drowning out other more real-world issues.

[Victor Galis]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The Left simply loves dictators

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe


Typically people are at there most liberal persuasion immediately upon graduating what with their high minded ideals and all. It takes a period of time to become so jaded that you fit comfortably into the old codger status of a conservative.

I assure you, I'm quite jaded.

[lord of the mark]

Re: Re: Re: Re: The Left simply loves dictators

Originally posted by Victor Galis


Or maybe he grew up I was conservative once, back when I was young and naive; well, maybe it was a knee-jerk reaction against communism.

why would being knee jerk against communism make you conservative? Theres a tradition of social democratic opposition to communism since the Bolshevik revolution.

So when you were young you were conservative, and hostile to social democracy. Now you are "left" and are hostile to democratization. Maybe you havent changed as much you think.

[Victor Galis]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The Left simply loves dictators

Originally posted by lord of the mark


why would being knee jerk against communism make you conservative? Theres a tradition of social democratic opposition to communism since the Bolshevik revolution.

So when you were young you were conservative, and hostile to social democracy. Now you are "left" and are hostile to democratization. Maybe you havent changed as much you think.

Because the natural opposition to communism, when you're six years old is about as far as you can go from it, some sort of mix of libertarianism/conservativism.

Oh, trust me, I used to be for a flat tax... now I'm convinced it's among the stupidest possible forms of taxation.

[lord of the mark]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The Left simply loves dictators

[QUOTE] Originally posted by Victor Galis


[q]So basically, you're saying that given the choice between horrible Fatah corruption and something truly new and different, they should have just gone with the old because Hamas doesn't like Israel.[q/]


There were others on the ballot. Did you not know that? In any case, its NOT a matter of what they should or shouldnt have done. Its a matter of dealing with what they did do.

Well, the issues would be different of course, but the tactics are the same, aren't they? Making an issue out of something that isn't, then drowning out other more real-world issues.

So i take it you admit you didnt know that the Egyptian govt is not "Secular" in the western sense? I would suggest reading more about Egyptian politics before making assertions about who would win an election under what circumstances. and try to make assertions based on your study of egyptian politics, not half assed analogies from American politics.

[Victor Galis]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The Left simply loves dictators

[QUOTE] Originally posted by lord of the mark

Originally posted by Victor Galis


[q]So basically, you're saying that given the choice between horrible Fatah corruption and something truly new and different, they should have just gone with the old because Hamas doesn't like Israel.[q/]


There were others on the ballot. Did you not know that? In any case, its NOT a matter of what they should or shouldnt have done. Its a matter of dealing with what they did do.

Well, the issues would be different of course, but the tactics are the same, aren't they? Making an issue out of something that isn't, then drowning out other more real-world issues.

So i take it you admit you didnt know that the Egyptian govt is not "Secular" in the western sense? I would suggest reading more about Egyptian politics before making assertions about who would win an election under what circumstances. and try to make assertions based on your study of egyptian politics, not half assed analogies from American politics.

It's more secular than a theocracy. Women in Egypt who don't wear the hijab don't necessarily fear for their lives like in some other places. I know Egypt has it's umm... bad areas where the government doesn't allow foreigners to travel for fear of what would happen to them, but compared to Saudi Arabia and Iran...

I don't consider the US government wholy secular as long as Bush is in power, but it's definitely a lot more secular than most governments. Secularism is an ideal. No one is perfect, there's only a distance to the ideal that can be more or less compared.

[DRoseDARs]

Yes kids, this is Donald Rumsfeld acting on behalf of President Reagan and Vice President George HW Bush to provide weapons to Saddam Hussein.



Lest Ned forgets...

[Ted Striker]

.

[lord of the mark]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The Left simply loves dictators

Originally posted by Victor Galis


It's more secular than a theocracy. Women in Egypt who don't wear the hijab don't necessarily fear for their lives like in some other places. I know Egypt has it's umm... bad areas where the government doesn't allow foreigners to travel for fear of what would happen to them, but compared to Saudi Arabia and Iran...

I don't consider the US government wholy secular as long as Bush is in power, but it's definitely a lot more secular than most governments. Secularism is an ideal. No one is perfect, there's only a distance to the ideal that can be more or less compared.

In egypt the govt provides financial support to religious institutions, and is deeply involved with their administration. Family law follows Islamic law, as it does in most of the Islamic world. The state is far more involved in religion than in the United States.

Yes, its more secular than SA, and indeed more secular than MB would like it to be. But that seems to have the support of most Egyptians. Which is why, ultimately, one would expect them to favor the "secular" opposition (IE relatively secular, by Egyptian standards) over the MB. The MBs strength is not cause religious parties always win due to some Rovian magic, but cause the of the nature of egyptian society under authoritarian rule. ]

The authoritarians breed religious extremism, and then use it as an excuse to remain in power.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by DRoseDARs

Yes kids, this is Donald Rumsfeld acting on behalf of President Reagan and Vice President George HW Bush to provide weapons to Saddam Hussein.



Lest Ned forgets...

funny, but i havent seen Hitchens speaking positively about Rumsfeld.

[Odin]

Originally posted by Ned

Capitalism is not an economic ideology. Capitalism is the RESULT of political and economic freedom.

This shows you know jack about capitalism. All you need for capitalism is for investors to control the means of production, the economy must be dominated by corporations in other words. The sole purpose of corporations is to maximze the profit of it's shareholders, everything else be damned. The capitalists actually don't like free markets because it forces them to compete with each other and therefore gets in the way of profit maximization, so unless there are regulations in place corporations will band together and distroy the free market and then gouge the consumer.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Re: Re: Re: The Left simply loves dictators

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
Yeah and once upon a time back on the Firaxis forums he was even a pleasant cordial individual speaking politely on the behalf of Firaxis (toady that he was) against Yin26 IIRC.

Course this was all before he was libruhlized by the academia.

I'm still pleasant and cordial, dickhead .

[civman2000]

EDIT: Oops, wrong thread.