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I also agree with Dauphin, however: I don't think it's the Church's fault that Africans don't use condoms. Not at all. I have no particular love for the Catholic Church, or any organized religion for that matter, but that's just unfair.
Originally posted by Lorizael
CyberShy. The "liberal" belief is generally along the lines of... you can't stop humans from having sex; they're going to do it no matter what you teach them. So, if they're going to have sex, and you can't stop them, you might as well teach them how to have sex responsibly and safely. The liberal position is not really about free love and sexual promiscuity.
And imho the liberals are free to believe this and try this.
I hope the liberals will be liberal enough to let the Roman Catholic Church do it their way.
For sure since the RC way already has proven to be a abetter anti-AIDS way in Africa.
Formerly known as "CyberShy"
Carpe Diem tamen Memento Mori
And imho the liberals are free to believe this and try this.
Well, that depends on who is in power. Right now, no dice. The liberal approach has been stomped by Bush, et al, who put conditions on aid money such as "you must teach abstinence only" and **** like that.
As for the claim that the RC Church has been effective at AIDS prevention... what are you basing that on?
I don't know the details as to who promoted which strategy(ies?) in Uganda, but I do recall that Uganda has had a greatly reduced infection rate compared to the rest of Africa whilst at the same time being criticised for placing undue emphasis on abstinence.
One day Canada will rule the world, and then we'll all be sorry.
I know that in the US one of the states with the worst teen pregnancy rates is Texas, which just happens to be one of those abstinence only sex ed states.
Everyone understands that a true communism - in which everybody has everything they need and there is no class struggle - would be a really cool thing, but as soon as you look at the real world with real humans, it doesn't happen.
Besides that, every sane person understands that monogamy is the end of AIDS anyway.
Uganda. Interesting.
As for the monogamy = end of AIDS... yes, and if you think that monogamy on a global scale is possible, great. I, decadent liberal that I am (though totally monogamous myself), don't think it is. People are gonna screw around.
I have no problem whatsoever in teaching that abstinence/monogamy will protect you from STDs. That makes perfect sense. I have an issue with teaching it and at the same time railing against or failing to mention things like condoms.
In other words: abstinence = foolproof. If, however, you don't abstain, make sure you put on that condom!
but as soon as you look at the real world with real humans, it doesn't happen.
It does happen.
I'm living 100% monogame.
I know many friends who do.
Of course it's not possible full proof full scale.
Like it's not possible to have condoms used full proof full scale. It's just never going to happen.
But even if monogame people by mistake cheat on their wives or husbands, let's say twice in their life.
Even in such a situation AIDS would most probably die.
The problem in Africa is that the people are used to have sex with many people in many cases.
I understand that people do things they regret. I cannot be sure that I'll never cheat on my wife, for I'm only human, but I really do not intend to do it. But maybe one day I'll be an idiot. That's what christianity believes anyway, that we are sinners. I am, you are.
But condoms encourage a life with multiple sexual relations. For sure for people in Africa, who are used to do that anyway, it's a part of their culture.
Monogamy with mistakes is already 100 times better then the current situation.
For sure if you take into concideration that condoms are not full AIDS proof. Perhaps the are in theory, but in reality they break, they slide off, or other things go wrong.
Anyway, as a person I have no problem with condoms or any kind of birth protection. Me and my wife used it ourselves. (we stopped, she's pregnant now 8))
But I just think you guys should respect the roman catholic church more for their opinion on how to fight AIDS.
Formerly known as "CyberShy"
Carpe Diem tamen Memento Mori
Besides that, it's plain silly to think that someone who's committing adultery thinks: "I'm not allowed to use a condom while committing adultery, so I won't"
That's like someone who steals a car and then says to himself: "It's against the law to speed too fast and I want to respect the law"
Formerly known as "CyberShy"
Carpe Diem tamen Memento Mori
I don't think you really know much about how "African" culture works.
Also, condoms do not encourage sexual promiscuity. People that wish to be sexually promiscuous will be attracted to condoms, but people that aren't so inclined will not suddenly be attracted to the idea when they learn about condoms.
You are proof of that. When you were having sex with your wife while wearing a condom, did the idea of sex with multiple partners suddenly seem more attractive to you?
As for the claim that the RC Church has been effective at AIDS prevention... what are you basing that on?
I found a link the other day to a protestant site which was lamenting the fact that, in countries with a predominantly protestant population, the incidence of AIDS was actually higher than that in predominantly Catholic nations.
I don't know how accurate their claims are, but Cyber's probably right on this. As bad as it sounds, it's quite possible the Catholics are getting better results on the ground.
But it's not just secular liberals who question the Church's position on this. There is also a significant level of dispute between 'left' and 'right' partisans within the Church.
Personally, I was really hoping we'd get an African Pope this time around. But,.. the cursed fools wouldn't listen to me!!1!
37While he was speaking, a Pharisee invited him to dine with him; so he went in and took his place at the table. 38The Pharisee was amazed to see that he did not first wash before dinner. 39Then the Lord said to him, “Now you Pharisees clean the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside you are full of greed and wickedness. 40You fools! Did not the one who made the outside make the inside also?
...
46And he said, “Woe also to you lawyers! For you load people with burdens hard to bear, and you yourselves do not lift a finger to ease them.
...
52Woe to you lawyers! For you have taken away the key of knowledge; you did not enter yourselves, and you hindered those who were entering."
Originally posted by Arrian
The liberal approach has been stomped by Bush, et al, who put conditions on aid money such as "you must teach abstinence only" and **** like that.
You are proof of that. When you were having sex with your wife while wearing a condom, did the idea of sex with multiple partners suddenly seem more attractive to you?
I've never used condoms, we used the pill
That never made multiple partners more attractive to me, maybe to her
If the church says that people can use a condom, some people may and will then associate the church view on sexuality with the liberal view on sexuality.
Again: I don't see the problems of using protection.
But I think that the church deserves credit for doing a good job fighting AIDS.
Not to mention that it does a really good job on fighting all kinds of problems.
Formerly known as "CyberShy"
Carpe Diem tamen Memento Mori
Monogamy is nice in theory but well it just doesn't work in practise. People like to screw around. Theres also the fact that many people will screw around before they meet the person they'll settle down with too.
Too teach monogamy effectively you need to start marriages young.
You need to have some form of why sleeping arounds bad. I doubt many people on the ground consider the fear of aids when they're screwing around. Which is why the church ties it into their religion.
They should teach a message like this:
The only surefire way is to have only one partner but if you can't do that then for godssake wear a condom.
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