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  • Pope To Consider Allowing People To Live



    Ideals Collide as Vatican Rethinks Condom Ban
    By IAN FISHER
    ROME, May 1 — Even at the Vatican, not all sacred beliefs are absolute: Thou shalt not kill, but war can be just. Now, behind the quiet walls, a clash is shaping up involving two poles of near certainty: the church's long-held ban on condoms and its advocacy of human life.

    The issue is AIDS. Church officials recently confirmed that Pope Benedict XVI had requested a report on whether it might be acceptable for Catholics to use condoms in one narrow circumstance: to protect life inside a marriage when one partner is infected with H.I.V. or is sick with AIDS.

    Whatever the pope decides, church officials and other experts broadly agree that it is remarkable that so delicate an issue is being taken up. But they also agree that such an inquiry is logical, and particularly significant from this pope, who was Pope John Paul II's strict enforcer of church doctrine.

    "In some ways, maybe he has got the greatest capacity to do it because there is no doubt about his orthodoxy," said the Rev. Jon Fuller, a Jesuit physician who runs an AIDS clinic at the Boston Medical Center.

    The issue has surfaced repeatedly as one of the most complicated and delicate facing the church. For years, some influential cardinals and theologians have argued for a change for couples affected by AIDS in the name of protecting life, while others have fiercely attacked the possibility as demoting the church's long advocacy of abstinence and marital fidelity to fight the disease.

    The news broke just after Benedict celebrated his first anniversary as pope, a relatively quiet papal year. But he devoted his first encyclical to love, specifically between a man and a woman in marriage.

    Indeed, with regard to condoms, the only change apparently being considered is in the specific case of married couples. But any change would be unpopular with conservative Catholics, some of whom have expressed disappointment that Benedict has displayed a softer face now as defender of the faith than he did when he was still Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, the papal adviser.

    "It's just hard to imagine that any pope — and this pope — would change the teaching," said Austin Ruse, president of the Culture of Life Foundation, a Catholic-oriented advocacy group in Washington that opposes abortion and contraception.

    It is too soon to know where the pope is heading. Far less contentious issues can take years to inch through the Vatican's nexus of belief and bureaucracy, prayer and politics, and Cardinal Javier Lozano Barragán, the pope's top aide on health care issues, and other officials declined requests for interviews.

    The news reports have been contradictory, except to confirm that the pope has asked for such a review.

    Cardinal Lozano Barragán was quoted in a daily newspaper, La Repubblica, as saying Benedict made the request two months ago, as part of a broader examination of bioethical issues. "My department is carefully studying it, along with scientists and theologians entrusted with drawing up a document about the subject," he was quoted as saying.

    He backtracked slightly a few days later: "We are in the first stage," the cardinal told the Zenit News Agency, which specializes in covering the Catholic Church. Would there be a document? "There might or might not be."

    The debate has two levels: one on moral theology and church doctrine, the other on public relations and politics. Many factors are driving the debate: The church is experiencing its greatest growth in Africa, which has the most severe AIDS problem. Much health care in Africa is provided by Catholic charities, whose workers often speak of being torn between church doctrine and the need to prevent disease.

    More broadly, critics of the current Vatican policy say it is hard for the church to remain consistent on so-called life issues, like its opposition to abortion, euthanasia and the death penalty, when condom use can help prevent the spread of AIDS.

    But there is a deep vein of feeling against any change. Some oppose any perceived erosion of Humanae Vitae, the 1968 encyclical that banned artificial contraception, while other opponents say approving condoms for AIDS prevention might be interpreted as a wider acceptance of their use.

    "That will be picked up as 'Church O.K.'s Condoms,' and that would seem to undermine the whole church teaching on sexuality and marriage," said the Rev. Brian V. Johnstone, a moral theologian at the Alphonsian Academy in Rome.

    The debate was reopened, in public at least, in a long discussion in the newsweekly L'Espresso last month between Cardinal Carlo Maria Martini, the retired archbishop of Milan and an influential thinker in the church, and an Italian bioethicist, Ignazio Marino.

    "Certainly the use of prophylactics can, in some situations, constitute a lesser evil," Cardinal Martini said. "There is, then, the particular situation of spouses, one of whom is affected by AIDS."

    But he recognized arguments against any such official statement, saying, "The question is really if it is wise for religious authorities to propagandize in favor of this method of defense, almost implying that the other morally defensible means, including abstinence, should be put on a secondary plane."

    The moral arguments stretch back nearly two millenniums, to the idea that the church has a responsibility, in difficult moral cases, to advocate the "lesser evil."

    "It is not considering that using a condom is morally good or right," Father Johnstone said. "You are simply trying to persuade that person to do the lesser evil — but it is still considered evil."

    There are other related arguments: One is "self defense," in which an uninfected partner could demand condom use to protect against infection. Another is that using a condom against AIDS could be considered medical intervention rather than contraception.

    But the "lesser evil" argument is not universally accepted among Catholic thinkers, and the theology is complicated. Among many other issues, there is the user's intent: whether it is possible to use a condom without the intention of contraception.

    "Putting on a condom is clearly something someone chooses," the Rev. Thomas Berg, an ethicist and executive director of the Westchester Institute, an institute for Catholic studies in New York, said by e-mail. "And to do so in sexual relations, even if one's purpose is not to contracept, but merely to stop the spread of disease, one would still be opting for something that drastically disorders those sexual relations. And this, the church has taught to be immoral."

    Echoing other conservative voices, Father Berg said he believed that in the end, Benedict would make no changes but use the debate to "vigorously re-endorse ethically acceptable answers to the AIDS crisis, namely, the virtue of chastity and abstinence."

    But others point to what they say is Benedict's capacity to surprise, using the shorthand of "Nixon in China" to make the case that a hard-liner could, without reversing church doctrine, more easily make such a change.

    Making a change would address a relatively small part of the problem because transmission of AIDS usually involves unmarried people. But if Benedict did so, "it will have a huge influence," said Rebecca Schleifer, a researcher on AIDS issues for Human Rights Watch, though that influence may be exactly what many in the Vatican fear.

    She and other experts said it could help break down resistance to condom use in places like the Philippines or parts of Africa, where Catholic officials or clerics have a large influence.

    "The church taking a step forward in saying, 'They do work and we believe in them in this situation' is important to help protect the lives and health of millions of people around the world," Ms. Schleifer said.
    To further progress by the Church. Clearly, there is room in the doctrine for this, some people just need to get out of medieval thinking.




    Note: UR, this is not a thread about whether God exists and such. Please, don't troll here. Thank you.
    “As a lifelong member of the Columbia Business School community, I adhere to the principles of truth, integrity, and respect. I will not lie, cheat, steal, or tolerate those who do.”
    "Capitalism ho!"

  • #2
    Aye, bout bloody time.

    They must be realising that sex sells.

    Comment


    • #3
      I don't see what this has to do with medieval thinking. They didn't have AIDS back then and nor did they have condoms.
      DISCLAIMER: the author of the above written texts does not warrant or assume any legal liability or responsibility for any offence and insult; disrespect, arrogance and related forms of demeaning behaviour; discrimination based on race, gender, age, income class, body mass, living area, political voting-record, football fan-ship and musical preference; insensitivity towards material, emotional or spiritual distress; and attempted emotional or financial black-mailing, skirt-chasing or death-threats perceived by the reader of the said written texts.

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      • #4
        Medieval in the fact that they haven't upgraded their position on this since medieval times, just went with the default condoms will lead to sexual promiscuity therefore bad position.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Flip McWho
          Aye, bout bloody time.

          They must be realising that sex sells.
          Next up, female priests.
          I've allways wanted to play "Russ Meyer's Civilization"

          Comment


          • #6
            Female priests in sexier uniforms

            Comment


            • #7
              Like black maid uniforms, minus the apron but with a whateveritscalled across the neck.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Flip McWho
                Medieval in the fact that they haven't upgraded their position on this since medieval times, just went with the default condoms will lead to sexual promiscuity therefore bad position.
                I disagree. They had plenty of promiscious clergy during the medieval times, so they must have upgraded their position.
                DISCLAIMER: the author of the above written texts does not warrant or assume any legal liability or responsibility for any offence and insult; disrespect, arrogance and related forms of demeaning behaviour; discrimination based on race, gender, age, income class, body mass, living area, political voting-record, football fan-ship and musical preference; insensitivity towards material, emotional or spiritual distress; and attempted emotional or financial black-mailing, skirt-chasing or death-threats perceived by the reader of the said written texts.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Well downgraded if they went from plenty to none.

                  Medieval is really a buzz word used to describe a much needed update of the Church's position.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Well, at least they're discussing it.

                    -Arrian
                    grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

                    The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Pope To Consider Allowing People To Live

                      Way to go Catholic Church.

                      Originally posted by DaShi
                      Note: UR, this is not a thread about whether God exists and such. Please, don't troll here. Thank you.
                      This is not antagonistic at all. You're open and fair and honest. Great way to end the stupid little fight that keeps creeping up across the forum.
                      Click here if you're having trouble sleeping.
                      "We confess our little faults to persuade people that we have no large ones." - François de La Rochefoucauld

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I'm surprised
                        A lot of Republicans are not racist, but a lot of racists are Republican.

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                        • #13
                          Even if the Church adopted a position that the use of condoms be unrestricted I doubt it would make much difference, even in Africa where it's most important.

                          Reason and excuse (for not wearing condoms) are different things.
                          One day Canada will rule the world, and then we'll all be sorry.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Yes, but there are Christian missionaries in Africa trying to help people with AIDS, and while they can do a lot of good, they can also do a lot of bad. If they are allowed to give condoms out along with whatever other assistance they offer, they will do more good and less bad.
                            Click here if you're having trouble sleeping.
                            "We confess our little faults to persuade people that we have no large ones." - François de La Rochefoucauld

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                            • #15
                              Are they telling married men/women with AIDS that they should 'have sex with their partners without condoms', or that they should 'not have sex because they have AIDS and can't use a condom as its not allowed'. If its the first, then I'd agree that they're causing problems. If it's the latter I can't see how what they are doing is bad per se. If people selectively ignore one piece of advice while following the other then it's human nature and not the missionary at fault.

                              Is it the missionary at fault when "Don't have sex and don't use a condom" is heard as "Don't use a condom". Without the missionaries they'd still have sex without the condom after all.
                              One day Canada will rule the world, and then we'll all be sorry.

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