"Brittish" Death Squads to Infiltrate Israel

[Son of David]

Originally posted by Provost Harrison


That kind of blinkered sentiment embodies many of the things wrong with the modern world...

Actually I find that the general level of pro-Palestine sentiment among young white British university students is a much more egregious example of 'vicarious empathy' or more precisely projection - these young people believe themselves to be hard done by (when they're actually just malcontent as a result of living in a country that's gone from superpower status to something rapidly descending towards Third World status in the space of about a century and a half), they hate America, they hate Jewish people, and oh! what a wonderful way to sublimate their base hatred for all these things than to explain 'solidarity' with the poor, oppressed Palestinians!

Now it's that kind of **** which I feel is the biggest problem in the world today. Shalom!

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by Sandman
You appear to accept hardcore Zionist 'scholarship' on Nazi links to the Palestinians without even pausing to think that it might be biased or untrustworthy.

While the guy is somewhat... exaggurating at the interpertation side - his facts are correct.

Haj Amin Al-Husseini was a nazi sympathiser. He was also one of the most important and influencial figures on Palestinian "nationalism". The account of his ties with Arafat I don't know exactly, but it does appear they are somehow related.

[Sirotnikov]

It will certainly bring peace to the region since Israel is the chief cause of unrest and resentment in the Middle East, or do you wish to deny that obvious fact?

Pfft.
Spoken like a true newspaper nonsense gobbler.

The chief cause of unrest and resentment in the Middle East is the continuous identity crisis of the area's population, often randomly divided into countries and given silly identities, after the fall of the Ottoman empire. It's an inner struggle over their national, religious and cultural identity, as well as an outer struggle for their role in the world as a 'major culture' as they still deem themselves.

The second cause of unrest are undemocratic leaders who use their power to produce hate towards foreigners, and abuse the local population.

Israel is an easy scape goat, and a symbol of something of an opposite - a successfull powerful and democratic country.

[Sirotnikov]

Hmm...
here's a time machine experiment.

LOTM: Wow, so the destruction of Jews will save us from WWII, eh? Oy vey.

Agathon: It will certainly bring peace to Europe since Jews are the chief cause of unrest and resentment in Germany and its neighbours, or do you wish to deny that obvious fact?

[Edan]

Originally posted by Agathon


World War II was terrible, but the lesson of WWII was that this is extremely unlikely to happen again.

Until the next time it happens, at least.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Cort Haus
Can anyone point to Palestinian national consciousness under the Ottoman Empire? While National Liberation movements were developing in 19th century Europe under Turkish rule, what was the Palestinian equivalent during that period?

Who gives a **** about "national concience"????

Nationalism is a bane, a worthles perinicious horrible idea.
We should be far more concerned with people's (individual's) civil rights. And one of them is self rule.

Do you dare state thatthe people who lived in the area of palestine, if given self-rule, would have chosen to become a Zionist homeland?

Oh, and on your previous link: so what? Wow, the Brist for strategic reasons thought they should have friends in the Arabv world. BIG SURPRISE!

[GePap]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


You are right. In fact id narrow it down further. Historically no one is trusted to let Jews in when they need a place to go, not even the people one couldnt imagine killing Jews. The great shift in Jewish opinion toward political Zionism took place in the 1920s and 30s when western polities shut down immigration, just as the Jews most needed a place to go. And what confirmed the Jewish immigrant community in Palestine for full statehood, rather than autonomy or a binational state, was the arab hostility to Jewish immigration.

And of course no one is interested in a "pure" state. Israel is by no means "pure". All they want is a state with a Jewish majority, where the state makes the interests of the Jewish people one of its key concerns.

Survival? How did the Zionist state do anything to aid Jewish survival anywhere?

Were does the fantasy that having your own state makes you safe come from? The Poles sure as hell were not safe having their own state. Jews in the US are a hell of a lot safer than Jews in Israel.

And as for Arab hostility to Jewish immigration- well, you mentioned western hostility towards immigration. IN fact, hostility towards immigration into the place you live by people of different religions and who speak different languages, and especailly of people with no interest in joining your polity is pretty damn much UNIVERSAL.

Why should Arabs be judged differently in thier opinion of letting foreigners into their land than anyone else?

[GePap]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov

While the guy is somewhat... exaggurating at the interpertation side - his facts are correct.

Haj Amin Al-Husseini was a nazi sympathiser. He was also one of the most important and influencial figures on Palestinian "nationalism". The account of his ties with Arafat I don't know exactly, but it does appear they are somehow related.

That canard.

Nationalism in general, in any form, is dangerous and evil. That Palestinians, under British rule and seeing what they considered their land being overrun by foreigner who were Jews, would sympethize with a movement that was anti-Jewish and eventually the biggest enemy of Britian should be, well, no freaking surprise.

Its called "the enemy of my enemy"

BUt even then, that is utterly irrelevant to the wholesale denial to the Palestinian people of basic civil rights and many basic human rights. That is inexcusable.

[GePap]

The reason this conflict is so damned endless is because the notion of national, or collective rights remains paramount to that of individual civil and human rights.

The notion is that "the Jews" and "The Palestinians" deserve this, or that. As opposed to "every individual who lives in that area regardless of any self-identification" deserves these rights, or those rights. That won't change in any ways for a long time, and the fact remains that to satisfy the civil and human rights of Palestinians by violating the civil and human rights of Israelis is equally repugnant.

But there is a greater responsibility to those who are powerful, and the Israelis are the side with power, and they are the ones who do the majority of the oppression. Palestinians commit acts of murder. BUt its the Israelis unfortunately who committ widespread and perveasive violations of basic civil and human rights on a daily basis. And I could never support that.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by GhengisFarb
Heck, I be willing to give them Montana now.

They can take out their aggression on Canada.

Let them try.

[Son of David]

Originally posted by GePap
The reason this conflict is so damned endless is because the notion of national, or collective rights remains paramount to that of individual civil and human rights.

I'm just curious when I ask you this question (and I notice that you're a fellow Nietzschean!)

How do you propose to ensure 'human and civil rights' without a strong concept of nation?

So if we abolish the primacy of nation, how do we maintain armies, bureaucracies etc so essential to preventing certain kinds of peoples being invaded by other peoples, or maintain law and order in general?

Nietzsche was against nationalism but he was also, and much more so, against anarchism. Seems to me that the modern anti-state zeitgeist is the tendency to bite the hand that feeds ....

[Sandman]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
Water is going to be negotiated. Its a complex issue, and there are serious claims going both ways. I doubt in any final settlement that Israel would get complete control over the water.

How about a fifty-fifty split? Or is that too good for the Palestinians?

The other two are security related. A glance at a map tells you that its very hard to fit two states with absolute soveriegnty into such a small space. Which is why many in the Israeli peace camp for so long advocated turning the West Bank over to Jordan. But thats out, so we have to do our best. The best alternative is a Pal state with SOME limitations on soveriegnty. I believe that can be done, while achieving the all the practical needs of the Pal people. To charecterize any limits on Pal soveriegnty as making a Pal state a "bantustan" is to sabotage the whole process.

Its also fundamentally ahistorical. The South African bantustans were NOT the full area that nonwhites claimed, but with limits on air control, etc. They were areas designed to take the populations who werent actually living in the Bantustans, but in the South African cities, and to pretend they were citizens of the bantustans, and so deny them the vote. And of course the ANC didnt look to a two state solution, but to a single South Africa under majority rule. Which made sense, as the white South Africans had, since 1910 or so, supported a united South Africa as well (albeit with minority rule) and only began to talk about partition much later, and not seriously at that.

Denying people the vote by making them citizens of some 'homeland' they've never been to is a tactic used by Israel today to push the Palestinians out of Jerusalem. And yes, the whites of South Africa were very much interested in a multi-state solution - several of the bantustans were de facto independent nations. Designated with torturous borders and ruled by corrupt local elites, they were essentially racial dustbins. The aparteid whites just never got round to completely clearing the rest of the country of blacks.

We're not talking about religious 'conversion', we are talking about an academic who has been swayed by his analysis of history, and is therefore familiar with both sides of the argument.

It's far better to actually analyse arguments than sling mud, or sand in this case. Go ahead and deal with Gil-White's arguments if you want, but don't expect a debate if you're not prepared to rationally construct or deconstruct a position.

Sorry, I don't see why I should be the one to slave over several essays on a Zionist equivalent of Newsmax, while you sit on the sidelines sneering at me. I'll debate with you, not with Gil-White.

How are you going to 'remove the Palestinian leadership from history'?

It's a hypothetical. You seem to be saying that the Palestinians inherited their anti-semitism from the Nazis via their leaders. I'd say there's a bit more to it than that.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Edan

Until the next time it happens, at least.

The next time a war like that happens, we are all dead. Well... a few people might be left among the smoking, radioactive wastes, but who cares..?

LOTM: Wow, so the destruction of Jews will save us from WWII, eh? Oy vey.

Agathon: It will certainly bring peace to Europe since Jews are the chief cause of unrest and resentment in Germany and its neighbours, or do you wish to deny that obvious fact?

This argument is unworthy of you. I don't think any reasonable person has ever claimed the Jews were responsible for World War II.

Well, the Klan might blame them, but the theory is entirely new to me and irretrievably ridiculous to boot.

[Provost Harrison]

From now on Sirotnikov, I am going to refer to your nation as Isreal

[Sikander]

I can't believe that Aggy et al are so blind to the religious hatred of most Arabs and many Muslims generally for all Jews wherever they live. The existence of the Jewish state armed with nuclear weapons reduces the chances that Arab states will attempt to carry out a popular genocide with state level resources. If anybody needs reminding there have already been several attempts to do this, the latest being 1973. The destruction / abandonment of the Jewish state will in no way solve the underlying problems of the Arabs or the Muslims or the Israelis or the Jews. If anything the engagement and example of the successful Israeli state formed from almost nothing in the last century or so as an example of what is possible should be a prod to all the laughable failure that is the surrounding Arab world.

I'd be happy btw to give the 11-12 million illegal immigrants an indefensible Israel sized chunk of Texas where they can live in perpetuity along with any other illegal immigrants who wish to come to the U.S. in the future. It would really make the U.S. easier to administrate.