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  • Why?!? Please tell me why

    Why the hell does this guy still have a job? Please someone give me one good reason he should still be in office. Sorry if something like this has been posted before.

    Retired general: ‘Uplifting’ if Rumsfeld removed
    Six former senior officers have publicly called for change due to Iraq


    WASHINGTON - A retired Army general on Friday continued the volleys of criticism against Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and his handling of the Iraq war, telling NBC News that “a fresh start in the Department of Defense ... would be incredibly uplifting” for the armed forces.

    Retired Maj. Gen. John Batiste, who commanded the 1st Infantry Division in Iraq until last November, appeared on NBC’s “Today” show to reiterate criticisms he leveled earlier this week.

    Batiste said Rumsfeld had “failed to build the peace” in Iraq, and criticized “a leadership style which is intimidating, abusive. There was not a two-way street of respect.”

    Whether the United States should be in Iraq in the first place was “moot” given the circumstances, he added. “We have to succeed” now that we are there, he said.

    Five other retired generals have also spoken out in recent days against Rumsfeld’s war strategy. Batiste emphasized that the generals were speaking independently and had not organized their criticism. “There is no political agenda at all,” he said, adding that he had not spoken to the other officers.

    As the high-ranking officers accused Rumsfeld of arrogance and ignoring his field commanders, the White House defended the man who has been a lightning rod for criticism over a war that has helped drive President Bush’s public approval ratings to new lows.

    Retired Marine Gen. Anthony Zinni told CNN that Rumsfeld should be held responsible for a series of blunders, starting with “throwing away 10 years worth of planning, plans that had taken into account what we would face in an occupation of Iraq.”

    ‘Micromanaged the generals’
    The spreading challenge to the Pentagon’s civilian leadership included criticism from some recently retired senior officers directly involved in the Iraq war and its planning.

    “I really believe that we need a new secretary of defense because Secretary Rumsfeld carries way too much baggage with him,” retired Maj. Gen. Charles Swannack, who led the Army’s 82nd Airborne Division in Iraq, told CNN on Thursday.

    “Specifically, I feel he has micromanaged the generals who are leading our forces,” he said.

    Retired Army Maj. Gen. John Riggs told National Public Radio on Thursday that Rumsfeld had helped create an atmosphere of “arrogance” among the Pentagon’s top civilian leadership.

    “They only need the military advice when it satisfies their agenda. I think that’s a mistake, and that’s why I think he should resign,” Riggs said.

    Retired Marine Lt. Gen. Gregory Newbold and Army Maj. Gen. Paul Eaton have also spoken out against Rumsfeld.

    White House support
    The most nettlesome member of Bush’s Cabinet, Rumsfeld has been a lightning rod since the war began in March 2003.

    He was blamed for committing too few U.S. troops and for underestimating the strength of the insurgency. He took heat in 2004 over the abuse of Iraqi prisoners at the U.S. Army-run Abu Ghraib prison, and for a brusque response he gave to an Army National Guard soldier in Kuwait who questioned him on inadequate armor.

    Republicans in Congress have offered Rumsfeld little in the way of public support.

    But at the White House, the 73-year-old Rumsfeld drew unflinching support. “Yes, the president believes Secretary Rumsfeld is doing a very fine job during a challenging period,” White House spokesman Scott McClellan told reporters Thursday.

    The outcry came as opinion polls show eroding public support for the Iraq war in which about 2,360 U.S. troops have died and Bush is struggling to bolster Americans’ confidence in the war effort.

    Rumsfeld has offered at least twice to resign, but each time Bush has turned him down.

    link

  • #2
    Bush wants to show it's possible to have job security without tight labour laws.
    DISCLAIMER: the author of the above written texts does not warrant or assume any legal liability or responsibility for any offence and insult; disrespect, arrogance and related forms of demeaning behaviour; discrimination based on race, gender, age, income class, body mass, living area, political voting-record, football fan-ship and musical preference; insensitivity towards material, emotional or spiritual distress; and attempted emotional or financial black-mailing, skirt-chasing or death-threats perceived by the reader of the said written texts.

    Comment


    • #3
      While I have little to no respect for Rumsfeld, this sounds like a ´Dolchstoss Legende´ to me. (the militairy blame the politicians for their screw up´s)

      Offcourse the militairy should have said the occupation of Iraq would fail in any scenario, as the reasons for going to war were makebeleive to begin with.
      "post reported"Winston, on the barricades for freedom of speech
      "I don't like laws all over the world. Doesn't mean I am going to do anything but post about it."Jon Miller

      Comment


      • #4
        Offcourse the militairy should have said the occupation of Iraq would fail in any scenario, as the reason for going to war were makebeleive to begin with.
        From Slate:

        ...The patron saint, but also the object lesson, of the many officers who are mulling their options—whether to heed Newbold's rallying cry or keep their heads down and shoes polished—is Gen. Eric Shinseki, the former Army chief of staff who spoke truth to power and got slammed for his troubles. Shortly before the invasion, Shinseki told the Senate armed services committee that "a few hundred thousand" troops would be needed to impose order after the war was over. Paul Wolfowitz, then deputy secretary of defense, upbraided him in public the next day; Rumsfeld named Shinseki's successor a year in advance of his scheduled retirement, thus undercutting his authority for the rest of his term. In his Times op-ed, Gen. Eaton wrote of Shinseki's punishment, "The rest of the senior brass got the message, and nobody has complained since."

        Zinni, Eaton, and Newbold are explicitly trying to supplant the lesson of Shinseki with an earlier lesson—one that was propagated throughout the U.S. armed forces in the late 1990s but laid aside once the war in Iraq got under way. It came from a book called Dereliction of Duty, by H.R. McMaster, then an Army major, now a colonel. Based on extensive research into declassified files, the book concluded that during the 1960s, the Joint Chiefs of Staff betrayed their constitutional duties by failing to provide their honest military judgment to President Lyndon B. Johnson and Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara as they plunged into the quagmire of Vietnam. When McMaster's book was published in 1997, during the Clinton administration, Gen. Hugh Shelton, then the JCS chairman, ordered all his service chiefs and commanders to read it and follow its lessons to the letter—to express disagreements to their superiors, even at the risk of getting yelled at. William Cohen, Clinton's secretary of defense, echoed the sentiment. Ever since, Dereliction of Duty has been a must-read for all senior officers.

        At a small, on-the-record press lunch last week with Gen. Zinni (who was promoting his new book, The Battle for Peace), I asked him what would have happened had even two other active-duty generals appeared before Congress—or resigned and called a press conference—to support Shinseki's testimony. Gen. Zinni said he thought President Bush would have had a harder time rallying political support for the invasion. I also asked him why, in the three years since the war's start, not a single active-duty general has mustered the courage (or recklessness, disloyalty, call it what you will) to follow Shinseki's example—or, to put it another way, to follow the lesson in Dereliction of Duty.

        Gen. Zinni referred to another book, a favorite of officers for nearly four decades now—Anton Myrer's 1968 novel, Once an Eagle. It's about two Army officers, friends from childhood, and their rise through the ranks: Sam Damon, a straight-arrow field commander, and Courtney Massengale, a scheming Pentagon careerist. Gen. Zinni said the two characters are widely seen in his profession as symbols for the two types of military officer—and the two paths of military promotion. He stopped short of saying so explicitly, but he suggested that the Pentagon's upper ranks contain too many Courtney Massengales and not enough Sam Damons.

        He acknowledged other reasons many generals have declined to follow Shinseki, et al. into dissent. Some have no problem with the war or the way it has been conducted. Many others take very seriously the principle of civilian control; they firmly believe it is not their place to disagree with the president and his duly appointed secretary of defense—certainly not to do so in public, especially while the nation is at war...
        -Arrian
        grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

        The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

        Comment


        • #5
          You know, there are almost a thousand flag officers currently serving, hundreds have retired since the Iraq war started.

          So why it when 4, hell even if it was 100, have a differing opinion it means OH MY GOD A MILITARY COUPS? I would be worried if every general was lock step dead in agreement, even if everyone thought this war was the best event to ever happen.

          It is also important that General Pace, who has more credibility in his pinky fingers than all these ones combined, and that is not because of and lack of credibility on their part, said they are being Monday morning quarterbacks and DID NOT say anything prior to events.
          "The DPRK is still in a state of war with the U.S. It's called a black out." - Che explaining why orbital nightime pictures of NK show few lights. Seriously.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Colon™
            Bush wants to show it's possible to have job security without tight labour laws.


            Take that France!

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Patroklos
              You know, there are almost a thousand flag officers currently serving, hundreds have retired since the Iraq war started.

              So why it when 4, hell even if it was 100, have a differing opinion it means OH MY GOD A MILITARY COUPS? I would be worried if every general was lock step dead in agreement, even if everyone thought this war was the best event to ever happen.

              It is also important that General Pace, who has more credibility in his pinky fingers than all these ones combined, and that is not because of and lack of credibility on their part, said they are being Monday morning quarterbacks and DID NOT say anything prior to events.
              I'm not sure if your joking here or just plain delusional. This war has gone bad from the beginning and I just can't believe that you would think that removing Rumsfeld would not have a positive effect. Please try and actually read what these generals are saying rather than making assumptions based on your own personal misconceptions. Also I hope you do realize that when on active duty these military officers are NOT allowed to publicly voice dissent.
              Last edited by mitch; April 14, 2006, 14:10.

              Comment


              • #8
                Yeah Mitch, obviously you have a better vantage point than I.

                I just happen to BE an active duty military officer, having actually read Dereliction of Duty and Once and Eagle, the first being required reading my senior year and the second included in my personal library. Hey, but what do I know.

                Regardless of that though, this..

                there are almost a thousand flag officers currently serving
                this...

                hundreds have retired since the Iraq war started
                this...

                So why it when 4... have a differing opinion it means
                Are facts. Do a little ratio analysis there. Actuallt it is far more than four, General Clark disagreed with Bush long ago. These guys are a little more relevant because they served in Iraq, but here is something for Poly's newest reactionary ideolog (welcome to the OT ) to note:

                Simply saying Iraq is a mess and saying we could have done better is Monday Morning Quarterbacking.

                Saying I told them this was ****ed up beforehand and was forced to do it anyways is something else. All four of these currently sensationalized Generals are the former.
                "The DPRK is still in a state of war with the U.S. It's called a black out." - Che explaining why orbital nightime pictures of NK show few lights. Seriously.

                Comment


                • #9
                  The patron saint, but also the object lesson, of the many officers who are mulling their options—whether to heed Newbold's rallying cry or keep their heads down and shoes polished—is Gen. Eric Shinseki, the former Army chief of staff who spoke truth to power and got slammed for his troubles. Shortly before the invasion, Shinseki told the Senate armed services committee that "a few hundred thousand" troops would be needed to impose order after the war was over. Paul Wolfowitz, then deputy secretary of defense, upbraided him in public the next day; Rumsfeld named Shinseki's successor a year in advance of his scheduled retirement, thus undercutting his authority for the rest of his term. In his Times op-ed, Gen. Eaton wrote of Shinseki's punishment, "The rest of the senior brass got the message, and nobody has complained since."
                  /me whistles
                  grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

                  The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Patroklos
                    Yeah Mitch, obviously you have a better vantage point than I.

                    I just happen to BE an active duty military officer, having actually read Dereliction of Duty and Once and Eagle, the first being required reading my senior year and the second included in my personal library. Hey, but what do I know.

                    Regardless of that though, this..



                    this...



                    this...



                    Are facts. Do a little ratio analysis there. Actuallt it is far more than four, General Clark disagreed with Bush long ago. These guys are a little more relevant because they served in Iraq, but here is something for Poly's newest reactionary ideolog (welcome to the OT ) to note:

                    Simply saying Iraq is a mess and saying we could have done better is Monday Morning Quarterbacking.

                    Saying I told them this was ****ed up beforehand and was forced to do it anyways is something else. All four of these currently sensationalized Generals are the former.
                    While I don’t dispute your facts, the conclusions you come to based on those facts are certainly something that I (and apparently most of America) don’t agree with. In fact, Rumsfeld himself doesn’t even agree with you because he’s already offered to resign twice, both times being turned down by Dubya. Do you really believe that keeping him in office is the best way to maintain the confidence of the US military? I will concede the point that since you are an active duty officer you have a little more of an insider perspective then me. But that also means that it’s hard for you to see beyond your own vantage point as you are part of this complex that is being criticized. You seem to think that just because these generals are ‘Monday Morning Quarterbacking’ that their opinions aren’t relevant anymore. In fact this should make their opinions even more relevant because these are people who obviously had no political agenda since they apparently supported the war in the first place and they still do. Did you even read the article I posted? Here is another statement made by General Batiste:

                    Whether the United States should be in Iraq in the first place was “moot” given the circumstances, he added. “We have to succeed” now that we are there, he said.
                    Its funny because in the article I posted Bush is quoted as saying that Rumsfeld’s leadership of the Pentagon was “exactly what is needed at this critical period.” What the hell? What is needed at this point is a change from the current direction and leadership of this mess of a war that is Iraq. The Abu Ghraib scandal alone should have cost him his job.

                    And sorry if my first response was harsh. I had a killer hangover so I was in a bad mood

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Who said anything about Rumsfeld resigning.

                      All I am saying is that people are making too much out of this "the Generals want him to resign" thing. There are only a handful that say that, and considering so many Generals have left the Army since Iraq started and these are the only ones to say this does not lead to the conclusion that the army brass is in some sort of mutiny over Rumsfeld. Or even in agreement over him. Hell, these ones are not even in agreement over why they don't like Rumsfeld.

                      Eh, you have to have a thick skin here, or in my case just not care about internet debates enough to get too pissed off
                      "The DPRK is still in a state of war with the U.S. It's called a black out." - Che explaining why orbital nightime pictures of NK show few lights. Seriously.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Bush doesn't want anyone from his inner circle resigning because they are all part of his plan to establish a dictatorship in 2008.

                        Rummy has offered his resignation in the past, but Bush refused it. I wonder how that works:

                        "Mr. President, I'm resigning. Here's my two weeks notice."

                        "No you're not. I'm not accepting this."

                        "Oh...um...ok. I guess I'll just go back to work then."

                        "There goes a man who is truly dedicated to his job."

                        “As a lifelong member of the Columbia Business School community, I adhere to the principles of truth, integrity, and respect. I will not lie, cheat, steal, or tolerate those who do.”
                        "Capitalism ho!"

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Colon™
                          Bush wants to show it's possible to have job security without tight labour laws.
                          “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
                          - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Please tell me why...

                            My car is in the front yard
                            and I'm...
                            Sleeping with my clothes on.
                            I came in through the window last night...
                            And you're gone. Gone.
                            Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Patroklos
                              Who said anything about Rumsfeld resigning.

                              All I am saying is that people are making too much out of this "the Generals want him to resign" thing. There are only a handful that say that, and considering so many Generals have left the Army since Iraq started and these are the only ones to say this does not lead to the conclusion that the army brass is in some sort of mutiny over Rumsfeld. Or even in agreement over him. Hell, these ones are not even in agreement over why they don't like Rumsfeld.

                              Eh, you have to have a thick skin here, or in my case just not care about internet debates enough to get too pissed off
                              HUH? I thought this whole debate was about why he hasn't resigned yet. And people are not making too much out of this situation. Here please read this article.

                              Comment

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