Gay events, lack of logic IMO. Mr.fun explain this to me.

[fed1943]

In my country homosexuals have the same rights then heterosexuals.In the last years I didn't go to the States or Canada.In this thread nobody realy said the diferent rights,duties,laws,concerning each of said groups of people.If there is still a diference,I would say you right go on,if not,I would say silly show of.
Best regards,

[notyoueither]

In Canada we club gay people when the baby seals aren't in season.

[Spec]

In north america we all have same rights, except for marriage, depending on which state or province you live in. Adoption laws are different too.

Spec.

[Velociryx]

I don't think I've ever asked the question Fed, but what country are you from?

-=Vel=-

[Spec]

Originally posted by notyoueither
In Canada we club gay people when the baby seals aren't in season.

Yea, that too...I forgot.


Spec.

[Velociryx]

-=Vel=-

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Velociryx
....That does not disprove the reality that homosexuals are still discriminated against.


No. No it does not.

And in bringing it up, I guess my indirect question is.....are there no lessons to be learned there?

I look at it kina like the underground railroad, during the days of slavery.

It wasn't put together by some mastermind with a grand plan.

Rather, it was haphazard. Piecemeal.

There was no grand design at work, and yet....

Once the FIRST person made the trip thru, others followed the example.

I guess what the question, for me, was something of a fishing expedition to see if there was a possibility of learning a few moves from the playbooks of those who "made it."

Make sense, or am I still way out in left field somewhere?

-=Vel=-

Well then you and I agree that there is good that can come out of broad acceptance of artists who happen to be gay. But my concern was that you would point this out without even seeing the problems that gays still have to deal with, in spite of the piecemeal achievements being made.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Spec


Indeed it doesn't. But the point of this thread is that having gay olympics and parades do nothing to help your cause imo.

Can you show me otherwise?

Spec.

Gay Pride parades CAN help our cause. Have you not read my posts where I have spoken about the dehumanizing effect of social unseakability in regards to homosexuals?? Gay pride parades are attempts to undo this unspeakability. We don't belong in the closet -- we belong in the broader society as equals, with our own identities.

[Velociryx]

Well then you and I agree that there is good that can come out of broad acceptance of artists who happen to be gay. But my concern was that you would point this out without even seeing the problems that gays still have to deal with, in spite of the piecemeal achievements being made.

No...no worries there. I made my comment above about DaVinci in a joking tone, but I'm actually more than half serious. I don't give a rat's behind about his sexual preferences, the man was prolly the most brilliant mind that ever graced the planet, and I'm not alone in my hero worship, or whatever it is. (that is to say, I don't like him because he's gay, I like him because he's brilliant, and that brilliance is not diminished by ONE SINGLE candle power because he is gay...er was, but you get my meaning!)

I'm just thinking that, while legislation WILL be the big equalizer, that legislation is not likely to come to pass until acceptance is ingrained in the minds of the hetero majority, and to do THAT, a cohesive strategy should be formulated that embraces the current and rising successes, since they're obviously doing "something right" in the public eye.

The word "cohesive" is important in that sentence. Probably the MOST important word in the whole shebang.

Imagine a symphony. The lights dim, the music begins to play....every individual element coming together to form a beautiful tapestry of sound.....and then the guy on oboe plays the wrong note.

The entire illusion is ruined.

This seems to me to be exactly what's happening with the marches and parades and other things that have an "in-your-face-we're-different" quality to them.

They strike me as an off-key note in the strategy toward acceptance. Always have, and apparently, I'm not the only one, cos Spec is the one who started this thread.

I suspect, then (and I don't have a shred of evidence to support this, btw), that it's a more widely felt phenomenon than any of us realize.

While I agree with you that such gatherings and public displays can help to foster a sense of strength and empowerment among the gay community (which is an important goal in its own right), I feel VERY strongly that it works directly against the goal of finding widespread acceptance among the hetero majority.

In other words, the best way to achieve equal treatment is not to flout your differences in the collective faces of the majority. It may well be the case that it serves an important role in terms of cohesion for the group in question, but my prediction is that the ONLY affect it can have on broad societal acceptance is to slow the process down.

Seems to me that the gay community would be better served by having a more cohesive strategy attacking the problem of acceptance, such that a "Gay Day" is ultimately seen as being more akin to a St. Patty's Day celebration than a protest march.

Did I ramble, or did that post make a bit of (quirky, I'm sure) sense??

-=Vel=-

[Elok]

Originally posted by MrFun
Gay Pride parades CAN help our cause. Have you not read my posts where I have spoken about the dehumanizing effect of social unseakability in regards to homosexuals?? Gay pride parades are attempts to undo this unspeakability. We don't belong in the closet -- we belong in the broader society as equals, with our own identities.

So you show how normal this aspect of your nature is by parading it? Parading sort of implies a certain amount of abnormality. I mean, I'm an aspie and I disagree with the folks who think there should be "aspie pride." Why? Because aspie pride has this funny way of turning us insular and cliquish. We get in groups online and start working ourselves into this paranoid, resentful Black Panther mood about how The Man has been screwing us over with his arbitrary social conventions and blah blah blah. It can make us feel like hot ****, but it doesn't accomplish anything but to circle the wagons against the "other" folk.

Which is why my attitude is to not treat it as a big deal, just acknowledge it and move on. I don't hide it or show it off. If it comes up, I mention it. I have a mild form of autism, that's it. Some advantages to it, some disadvantages, but I'm okay with it. I don't have to reassure myself of my own self-worth by making a spectacle of myself. That just reeks of insecurity, to be honest. Now, I'll admit that autism is relatively unknown and lacks the serious social stigma of homosexuality, but I think that's counterbalanced to some extent by its greater rarity and the innate difficulty of such people in forming a "community."

[Spec]

Originally posted by MrFun


Gay Pride parades CAN help our cause. Have you not read my posts where I have spoken about the dehumanizing effect of social unseakability in regards to homosexuals?? Gay pride parades are attempts to undo this unspeakability. We don't belong in the closet -- we belong in the broader society as equals, with our own identities.

Ok, then how does it help? How does makng parades help your cause? I see christmas parades as a celebration, so, automaticly, gay parades, in my mind, equals a celebration of being gay. Maybe I'm not thinking far enough, but how does that help your cause? Other than causing traffic in the streets so, automaticly, getting on our nerves.

You do understanbd that if I dont understand the meaning of the parade, the only impact on me, and others that have the same point of view, is traffic because of a meaningless gay parade...

Spec.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Elok


So you show how normal this aspect of your nature is by parading it? Parading sort of implies a certain amount of abnormality.

You can have a parade just cause its fun. Or you can have a parade to show people that the folks under the label dont all match the stereotype. Or you can have a parade cause you have a distinct culture, and you want to show others what its about. Or you could have a subculture within that grouping, and you want to share that. I mean why do people march on St Pattys day, or the Salute to Israel day in NYC, etc? All for different reasons, I suppose.

As for causes, why do people go to mass relies on the mall in Washington? does that show theyre 'abnormal'

Re aspies on parade. Im reminded of Elizabeth Wurtzel's half facetious suggestion in "Prozac Nation" that depressives ought to have a mass rally on the mall (if only they had the energy for it) Frankly I think that would be a great idea.

Im also reminded of "Thinking in Pictures" which shows how being aspie is both different, and yet not so different.

Whatever ones differences, there are some who want to celebrate it, some who bemoan it, and some who want to move beyond it. Some who want to gather together, and some who dont. And, yes, there is a time for one, and a time for the other, and for each person, it may well vary with where they are in their own life.

[fed1943]

Vel: I am from Portugal (West Europe).
I am retired now (poor health) but before that I had and did travel a lot.
And I always tried to understand.
Now,why did you ask? Pmail or email me,if you prefer.
Best regards,