Will this kill US support for the War on Terror?

[Drake Tungsten]

Thats not a colony. A colony requires you to send some of your own people to settle there.

Us colonists get no respect...

Afghanistan totally had the opportunity to turn into a Japan or Gemany experience

I have a feeling if this were about a Muslim converting to Buddhism, people in America wouldn't give a flying ****.

I don't know. A lot of people were pretty pissed about Bamiyan. I think you're just being paranoid.

[Datajack Franit]

And the recognition that we do all claim to serve the same God.

I'm not serving any God. Religion is the worst thing ever created by humanity. The point is, in which way you are giving an interpretation to your religion, which was invented right after the Stone Age, when women were valued less than cows, rape was acceptable and different countries were places to capture and burn. Christianity and Judaism have evolved to more peaceful interpretations of their holy scriptures, which praise murder, rape and killing of infidels and sinners.

The point is, Europe and the rest of the western world must impose a democratic interpretation of Islam to islamic countries, so that the future assimilation of Europe, Asia and America (in this order) won't re-create a second Dark Ages.

When the Roman Empire turned to Christianity, don't think it was a peaceful process. Temples and shrines were pillaged and burned, heretics were killed and infidels were forced to either convert, migrate or hide. Enough of this PC bull**** "religion of peace, religion of hate". Every religion is a religion of hate. The point is, enough talk and more action against people asking "martyrs" to kill all of us infidels, and welcome those that want to live in peace.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Ted Striker


Yep

Afghanistan totally had the opportunity to turn into a Japan or Gemany experience, and that's what most Americans expected, and because of this fetish for Saddam the whole place is a complete letdown

Yea right. Afghanistan is backward even for a Muslim country. I don't think there is a Muslim country on the planet with the capability of reaching the level of a Japan or a Germany (circa 1955) within a generation no matter how many troops are deployed.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
I think there needs to be some serious talks between Jews, Christians, and Muslims. And the recognition that we do all claim to serve the same God.

JM

I'd be happier if they all would just admit that their claims that their religion is the sole true faith are not only ridiculous but in fact offensive to any god worth worshipping.

[Jon Miller]

I do disargee with that

beleifs that you don't beleive, aren't really worth having

but to counter that, while I think I am right in some things, and others are wrong.. I hope to convince them to my point, not kill them nor do I consign them to 'hell' for thinking differently than I.

JM

[Pyrodrew]

Pressure Grows to Free Afghan Convert By AMIR SHAH, Associated Press Writer
Sat Mar 25, 2:46 AM ET
KABUL, Afghanistan - The Afghan government faced heavy international pressure to reconsider the charges against an Afghan man who faces a possible death sentence for converting from Islam to Christianity — and reports emerged that the man might be freed soon.

Pressure against the case has been building, and the Afghan government may be rethinking the charges against Abdul Rahman. Authorities met Saturday to discuss his fate, while a senior official said he could be freed shortly.

"They're all meeting at the moment about it," an official at President Hamid Karzai's palace said when asked if the government had made a decision on the matter. Another Afghan official told The Associated Press that Rahman, 41, could be freed soon. Both officials spoke on condition of anonymity because they are not authorized to comment on the case to the media.

Senior clerics in the Afghan capital have voiced strong support for prosecuting Rahman and again warned Friday they would incite people to kill him unless he reverted to Islam.

Ansarullah Mawlavi Zada, the chief among three judges trying the case, asserted the autonomy of the court.

"We have constitution and law here. Nobody has the right to put pressure on us," he told the AP.

Australia's Prime Minister John Howard, meanwhile, joined the chorus of Western leaders expressing outrage over the prosecution and said he would protest personally to President Hamid Karzai.

"This is appalling. When I saw the report about this I felt sick literally," Howard told an Australian radio network Friday. "The idea that a person could be punished because of their religious belief and the idea they might be executed is just beyond belief."

Rahman faces the death penalty under Afghanistan's Islamic laws for converting 16 years ago while working as a medical aid worker for an international Christian group helping Afghan refugees in Pakistan.

The case has put Karzai in an awkward position. The Afghan leader took power after the ouster of the hard-line Taliban regime in a U.S.-led war in late 2001 and relies on international forces to maintain his still-shaky grip on the country.

But he would be reluctant to offend Islamic sensibilities at home or alienate religious conservatives wielding considerable power.

Diplomats have said the Afghan government is searching for a way to drop the case. On Wednesday, authorities said Rahman is suspected of being mentally ill and would undergo psychological examinations to see whether he is fit to stand trial.

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice phoned Karzai on Thursday, seeking a "favorable resolution" of the case. She said Washington looked forward to that "in the very near future."

Senior clerics condemned Rahman as an apostate.

Rahman had "committed the greatest sin" by converting to Christianity and deserved to be killed, cleric Abdul Raoulf said in a sermon Friday at Herati Mosque.

"God's way is the right way, and this man whose name is Abdul Rahman is an apostate," he told about 150 worshippers.

Another cleric, Ayatullah Asife Muhseni, told a gathering of preachers and intellectuals at a Kabul hotel that the Afghan president had no right to overturn the punishment of an apostate.

He also demanded that clerics be able to question Rahman in jail to discover why he had converted to Christianity. He suggested it could have been the result of a conspiracy by Western nations or Jews.

At a fruit market in Kabul, many ordinary Afghans said they supported the death penalty, but some wanted more investigation before meting out the punishment.

"In the past 30 years, so many Afghans have been killed in name of communism, Taliban and politics or for robbery. It's enough Afghans killed," said Ghulam Mohammed, 45, a former army officer. Clerics should talk to him (Rahman) and bring him to the right way."

Finally a logical explanation for all of this. The Joos are converting Muslims to Christianity... you won't get away with this Joos!!1!

[Cort Haus]

We should remember that the Afghan war was ostensibly fought to disable part of Al-Quaeda's capacity, and to find the Main Man. It was not fought to banish Sharia Law from Afghanistan, even if we hoped that we might get that result into the bargain.

I think that Odin's analysis makes an valid point, even if I confidently expect that he will disagree with my conclusions. :

Unfortunately, in the Islamic world democracy almost always means the election of Islamist populists like Hamas and the Muslim Brotherhood. Assuming other the people of other civilizations will accept the Western values of religious freedom, seperation of church and state, free expression, and human rights is an act of Western Universalist arrogance on the level of Francis Fukuyama and other people trying to act as if Western values are universal values. To a person living in a muslim society seperation of church and state is unthinkable blasphemy. Diferent civilizations, different worldviews. We may not like it, but thats the way it is.

Fukuyama has already admitted that he got it wrong. I would go on to say that while I would unequivocally declare western values of religious tolerance to be superior to the barbarism of Sharia, the era of military interventionism has failed.

We cannot bomb and shoot our way to liberal, secular democracy all over the world. Japan and Germany were special cases after a World War, and the conditions that allowed their development do not exist in places like Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran and Gaza.

We built our democracies ourselves, over hundreds of years of progressive development of western civilisation. Our values were not imposed on us, and we will not successfully impose our values on others who will not accept them unless we wish to recreate the Roman Empire.

[Flip McWho]

Aye I agree. We need to pull our asses outta the ME and let them find their own way. All we're doing by intervening is prolonging the process. Adding fuel to the fires and keeping the Middle Easterns focused on the outside [enemy] world rather than looking inwards

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by Sikander

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten

Yep, the two of you have become nothing more than a big joke.

ROFL oh the cleverness

[GePap]

Originally posted by Cort Haus
We cannot bomb and shoot our way to liberal, secular democracy all over the world. Japan and Germany were special cases after a World War, and the conditions that allowed their development do not exist in places like Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran and Gaza.

Germany and Japan were certainly NOT "special cases". Germany was the first European country to have full male suffrage. Eben thought the Emperor kept many powers, in the Wilhemine Era Germany had a vibrant political scene with fair elections. Japan itself had a working perlimentary system for a couple of decades. Democracy in these countries was undermined by authoritarian forces that took over in times of crisis after popular discontent with democracy, but the experience of democracy was there.

Afghanistan never had a democracy, far less decades of democratic practice to restore. That, and of course Afghanistan is a state in utter ruins.

But hey, after decades of funding a deeply backwards Islam as our bulkward against nasty socialism, why are we surprised the troglediates in Afghanistan are so strong?

Maybe we should have let the Soviet backed socialist government rule the damned country....