The story of Purim.... why did they kill Haman(boo!)'s sons?

[Az]

My sense is that in Israel there is division about what is meant among different sectors of the Jewish population, and that the same individual may hold different views at different times and for different purposes. Its one thing to say, polemically, that someone who doesnt share "our fate" and lives pleasantly in Great Neck or West LA while "our" children to service in the territories, and "we" are vulnerable to bombs, doesnt deserve to be called a Jew, its another thing to say that new olim werent jews till they arrived, or that ones own grandfather wasnt Jewish because he never made aliyah. Of course theres talk about changing definitions to allow for secular conversion, as a way of dealing with the Russian problem - while thats not "halachacily right" from the Orthodox or Conserv POV, AFAIK all proposals still allow for both birth, and religious conversion, to play a role.

With time, there won't be such a distinction in adressing such issues.

I see the Russian integration issue as one of great importance - Israeli society and the people will modify themselves to accept those that want to be accepted into their fold, or it will break down into the radical feminist's dream, quickly to be followed by a nice civil war.

If it won't break us ( and it doesn't seem to, we're doing just fine in that regard), it will strengthen us.

I also wonder if you mean "anti-zionist" or "post-zionist"

The proper wording would be "non-zionist" I guess, and I was referring to "The Young Hebrews"/"Canaanites". I share around 70% of their ideology.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Az
[q]into the radical feminist's dream, .

WTF?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Az
I see the Russian integration issue as one of great importance - Israeli society and the people will modify themselves to accept those that want to be accepted into their fold,

well its been awhile since I took on the Russian integration issue, and i am somewhat handicapped by lack of relevant data. When last I took on this debate, coming from where I come from, and going by reports from Israel, I blamed the slow pace of conversion to Judaism on the Orthodox hierarchy, and its insistence on firm guarantees of family observance, and its general inability to act quickly. I was told by an Orthodox person (an Israeli IIRC) that there really arent that many Russian Gentiles in Israel who want to convert, and are sincere about a religious conversion, and that there really wasnt anything the O hierarchy could do. They were converting as many as they reasonably could. The recent success of military conversions, which look only to the individuals beliefs and willingness to learn, and ignore commitment to things like keeping kosher as a family, since the would be convert is part of "the family of the IDF" seems to argue that my correspondent was wrong, and that with relatively minor changes, the rate of conversion could be significantly increased.

What is your sense from where you sit (IE not only an Israeli, but someone with close ties to the Russian community)



You might be interested in this

http://www.masorti.org/media/12142005_jp.html

[Az]

WTF?

radical feminism presents an idea of perfect society as having no society, but groupings of sub-cultures. It's mainly a rant expanding the marxist idea of class struggle into every category you can group humans into.

What is your sense from where you sit (IE not only an Israeli, but someone with close ties to the Russian community)

The situation on the ground is that most people want to convert to conform. The vast majority of the "non-jewish by halacha" people who came from Russia are bent on building a life for themselves here, and are non-religious, with perhaps certain theist leanings.

This also creates a small, but solid ( in first generation, at least ) counter-culture of people who reject this, and that have formed a russian, or better put, 'later-soviet immigrant in a foreign country' set of mind.There are also small clusters of believing christians. There are also other opinions/mindsets.

For example, I know closely this girl who has a very strong Israeli mindset, she possibly stands where I stand, but has strongly decided against converting, due to the inherent hypocricy in the process.

At first, I tried to persuade her, but then I realized the size of my mistake - not only was it her decision to make, but she was also very very right - she shouldn't have to behave hypocritically, to join this nation.

The process shouldn't be more based on the present, and on introducing the person into the past. It shouldn't take a traditional stance on how life is supposed to be lived as a member of this nation. I wouldn't pass this test, now, would I?



This is the problem. The orthodox hierarchy is too damn traditional (duh) and the reform and conservatives are too cosmopolitan. The first presents a view of the nation long gone ( thank god), and the second a view of the nation that isn't simply wide in focus and choice ( I am obviously fine with that - Israel displays the full variety of modern and postmodern youth and class subcultures), but isn't defined as such at all.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Az

WTF?

radical feminism presents an idea of perfect society as having no society, but groupings of sub-cultures. It's mainly a rant expanding the marxist idea of class struggle into every category you can group humans into.

What is your sense from where you sit (IE not only an Israeli, but someone with close ties to the Russian community)

The situation on the ground is that most people want to convert to conform. The vast majority of the "non-jewish by halacha" people who came from Russia are bent on building a life for themselves here, and are non-religious, with perhaps certain theist leanings.

This also creates a small, but solid ( in first generation, at least ) counter-culture of people who reject this, and that have formed a russian, or better put, 'later-soviet immigrant in a foreign country' set of mind.There are also small clusters of believing christians. There are also other opinions/mindsets.

For example, I know closely this girl who has a very strong Israeli mindset, she possibly stands where I stand, but has strongly decided against converting, due to the inherent hypocricy in the process.

At first, I tried to persuade her, but then I realized the size of my mistake - not only was it her decision to make, but she was also very very right - she shouldn't have to behave hypocritically, to join this nation.

The process shouldn't be more based on the present, and on introducing the person into the past. It shouldn't take a traditional stance on how life is supposed to be lived as a member of this nation. I wouldn't pass this test, now, would I?



This is the problem. The orthodox hierarchy is too damn traditional (duh) and the reform and conservatives are too cosmopolitan. The first presents a view of the nation long gone ( thank god), and the second a view of the nation that isn't simply wide in focus and choice ( I am obviously fine with that - Israel displays the full variety of modern and postmodern youth and class subcultures), but isn't defined as such at all.

Im totally confused - you the R and C as too cosmopolitan, and yet their view of the nation "isnt simply wide in focus and choice"

As for your friend, one could well ask why she should convert - shes not a Jew, and isnt interested in becoming one (and as an atheist wouldnt be accepted by any of the three main streams) From a social POV, the question is - which is more damaging, having a large number of Hebrew speaking Israelis, who identify with the Jewish sector, but who cant marry Jews, even secular Jews, and so feel excluded, versus having a class of people who can legally marry Jews, but whom Orthodox Israelis (and other religious Israelis, but theyre not numerous enough to really matter) cant marry, and dont consider as Jews. Id say its a divisive question either way.

[Az]

Im totally confused - you the R and C as too cosmopolitan, and yet their view of the nation "isnt simply wide in focus and choice"

What I mean is that it isn't just "wide in choice", but it's "wishy washy in general", at least imho.

As for your friend, one could well ask why she should convert - shes not a Jew, and isnt interested in becoming one

Because she is interested in becoming a member of the nation. She doesn't see herself as an outsider and doesn't want to be considered one. More importantly, She really isn't considered one... except for the papers. This is the question: Why, if jews as a nation have wisely accepted that you don't have to believe in god to stay a jew, they cannot accept that you don't have to believe in god to become a jew.

versus having a class of people who can legally marry Jews, but whom Orthodox Israelis (and other religious Israelis, but theyre not numerous enough to really matter) cant marry, and dont consider as Jews. Id say its a divisive question either way.

It's a solid question, but since Orthodox jews rarely marry outside the community anyway, this mainly becomes a problem for the "traditional" jews ( who aren't as marginal a group as you might think. I think the majority used to define themselves that way not so long ago. ) Most would realize that people who share values and life experience can also share their homes and beds.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Az
[q]

It's a solid question, but since Orthodox jews rarely marry outside the community anyway,

As you may recall, im married to a woman from a haredi family. The fact that im halachically a Jew makes things much easier than they might otherwise be. I know this situation is not all that rare in the states (though more often with Dati) and id be surprised if in Israel there arent people whove ceased to be O but who are on good, or at least working, relations with their families. In my case no one had to check my geneology - my grandparents were all eastern european Jews, and there really was no question of my being halachacically Jewish. Here in the US, with a few more generations of Reform patrilineal descent, it soon wont be possible to simply make those assumptions any more. I see similar problems in Israel - and it would not be just questions of marriage, but all kinds of questions of identity, I think.

Like I said, I think its divisive either way.

As for me, I dont find C Judaism wishy washy, any more than ANY ideology that approaches the modern world in a liberal way is wishy washy. Of course not everyone is a liberal I suppose And there have certainly been illiberal, but modernist groups in Israel in the past, from certain revisionists, to certain far leftists. I dont think most of them called what they were doing "judaism" though it was certainly another part of Jewish civilization.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Az

Im totally confused - you the R and C as too cosmopolitan, and yet their view of the nation "isnt simply wide in focus and choice"

What I mean is that it isn't just "wide in choice", but it's "wishy washy in general", at least imho.

As for your friend, one could well ask why she should convert - shes not a Jew, and isnt interested in becoming one

Because she is interested in becoming a member of the nation. She doesn't see herself as an outsider and doesn't want to be considered one. More importantly, She really isn't considered one... except for the papers. This is the question: Why, if jews as a nation have wisely accepted that you don't have to believe in god to stay a jew, they cannot accept that you don't have to believe in god to become a jew.

You speak as if not having to believe in G-d to stay a Jew was a novum, developped by the folk in recent decades. Its not, its bibilical. The prophets called JEWS sinners for being idolators, not non-Jews. The rabbinic term apikoros, - heretic-epicurean- athiest was used to designate JEWS. There is NO time AFAIK, that this was not halacha. (the folk opinion in Brother Daniel, that a conversion to Christianity makes you a gentile, IS a novum, but thats something else and not directly useful to your friends case).

Its like this - you need take certain vows to your spouse to get married - having taken those vows, the fact that you no longer believe in them, or even carry them out, doesnt automatically mean youre not married. Many human institutions have different (and more stringent) requirements for entry than for staying in.

For example, no one believes that a born Dutchman who throws rocks at gays is no longer a Dutchman Or that a born American who spits at the Constitution is not an American.

[Last Conformist]

As for me, I dont find C Judaism wishy washy, any more than ANY ideology that approaches the modern world in a liberal way is wishy washy

Wishy-washiness is what liberalism is all abotu.