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  • Men Want Say in Unplanned Pregnancy!



    I've been advocating this for a long time. I know it won't succeed, but I'm with you guys!



    Men want 'say' in unplanned pregnancy
    Activists seek right to decline financial responsibility for kids

    Wednesday, March 8, 2006; Posted: 7:41 p.m. EST (00:41 GMT)

    NEW YORK (AP) -- Contending that women have more options than they do in the event of an unintended pregnancy, men's rights activists are mounting a long shot legal campaign aimed at giving them the chance to opt out of financial responsibility for raising a child.

    The National Center for Men has prepared a lawsuit -- nicknamed Roe v. Wade for Men -- to be filed Thursday in U.S. District Court in Michigan on behalf of a 25-year-old computer programmer ordered to pay child support for his ex-girlfriend's daughter.

    The suit addresses the issue of male reproductive rights, contending that lack of such rights violates the U.S. Constitution's equal protection clause.

    The gist of the argument: If a pregnant woman can choose among abortion, adoption or raising a child, a man involved in an unintended pregnancy should have the choice of declining the financial responsibilities of fatherhood. The activists involved hope to spark discussion even if they lose.

    "There's such a spectrum of choice that women have -- it's her body, her pregnancy and she has the ultimate right to make decisions," said Mel Feit, director of the men's center. "I'm trying to find a way for a man also to have some say over decisions that affect his life profoundly."

    Feit's organization has been trying since the early 1990s to pursue such a lawsuit, and finally found a suitable plaintiff in Matt Dubay of Saginaw, Michigan.

    Dubay says he has been ordered to pay $500 a month in child support for a girl born last year to his ex-girlfriend. He contends that the woman knew he didn't want to have a child with her and assured him repeatedly that -- because of a physical condition -- she could not get pregnant.

    Dubay is braced for the lawsuit to fail.

    "What I expect to hear [from the court] is that the way things are is not really fair, but that's the way it is," he said in a telephone interview. "Just to create awareness would be enough, to at least get a debate started."

    State courts have ruled in the past that any inequity experienced by men like Dubay is outweighed by society's interest in ensuring that children get financial support from two parents. Melanie Jacobs, a Michigan State University law professor, said the federal court might rule similarly in Dubay's case.

    "The courts are trying to say it may not be so fair that this gentleman has to support a child he didn't want, but it's less fair to say society has to pay the support," she said.

    Feit, however, says a fatherhood opt-out wouldn't necessarily impose higher costs on society or the mother. A woman who balked at abortion but felt she couldn't afford to raise a child could put the baby up for adoption, he said.
    'This is so politically incorrect'

    Jennifer Brown of the women's rights advocacy group Legal Momentum objected to the men's center comparing Dubay's lawsuit to Roe v. Wade, the 1973 Supreme Court ruling establishing a woman's right to have an abortion.

    "Roe is based on an extreme intrusion by the government -- literally to force a woman to continue a pregnancy she doesn't want," Brown said. "There's nothing equivalent for men. They have the same ability as women to use contraception, to get sterilized."

    Feit counters that the suit's reference to abortion rights is apt.

    "Roe says a woman can choose to have intimacy and still have control over subsequent consequences," he said. "No one has ever asked a federal court if that means men should have some similar say."

    "The problem is this is so politically incorrect," Feit added. "The public is still dealing with the pre-Roe ethic when it comes to men, that if a man fathers a child, he should accept responsibility."

    Feit doesn't advocate an unlimited fatherhood opt-out; he proposes a brief period in which a man, after learning of an unintended pregnancy, could decline parental responsibilities if the relationship was one in which neither partner had desired a child.

    "If the woman changes her mind and wants the child, she should be responsible," Feit said. "If she can't take care of the child, adoption is a good alternative."

    The president of the National Organization for Women, Kim Gandy, acknowledged that disputes over unintended pregnancies can be complex and bitter.

    "None of these are easy questions," said Gandy, a former prosecutor. "But most courts say it's not about what he did or didn't do or what she did or didn't do. It's about the rights of the child."
    “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
    - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

  • #2
    In all of these issues, people say men can't have as much of a say because they can't imagine what it would be like to be a woman.

    I disagree. I can imagine myself as a woman. In fact, I do, frequently, and...

    Hmm, maybe I'd better shut up now.
    "You're the biggest user of hindsight that I've ever known. Your favorite team, in any sport, is the one that just won. If you were a woman, you'd likely be a slut." - Slowwhand, to Imran

    Eschewing silly games since December 4, 2005

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    • #3
      "None of these are easy questions," said Gandy, a former prosecutor. "But most courts say it's not about what he did or didn't do or what she did or didn't do. It's about the rights of the child."


      That tells me all I need to know ... when it's a woman, it's "the rights of the woman" and not the rights of the child, but when it's a man, it's "the rights of the child" and not that of a man.

      The only problem, is that it's clear that there are circumstances where child support IS appropriate. Leaving that up to the courts isn't a great thing... but who else will decide?

      Perhaps allowing men at birth to choose to "recognize" the child, which gives them the rights of a father (visitation, custody, etc.) and the responsibilities (fiduciary and others), or to not recognize the child and thus have neither rights nor responsibilities. But they can't change their mind later...

      After all, contraception is the responsibility of both partners...
      <Reverend> IRC is just multiplayer notepad.
      I like your SNOOPY POSTER! - While you Wait quote.

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      • #4
        I got an idea...

        don't stick your penis in her pvssy

        there's your say
        Monkey!!!

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Jaguar
          In all of these issues, people say men can't have as much of a say because they can't imagine what it would be like to be a woman.

          I disagree. I can imagine myself as a woman. In fact, I do, frequently, and...

          Hmm, maybe I'd better shut up now.
          Those thoughts are perfectly natural in the burgeoning transexual or transvestite teenager. Usually we recommend talking to those who have gone through similar changes first, so you can get a feeling for what's happening; but in this case I suggest watching some relevant films, given your likely inability to travel on your own.
          <Reverend> IRC is just multiplayer notepad.
          I like your SNOOPY POSTER! - While you Wait quote.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Japher
            I got an idea...

            don't stick your penis in her pvssy

            there's your say
            So you'd ban abortion as well? After all, if you are talking personal responsibility for one gender, what about both?
            “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
            - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Japher
              I got an idea...

              don't stick your penis in her pvssy

              there's your say
              Can't you use the same, blunt reasoning in reverse re abortion?

              You don't want to be pregnant? Don't crave a bf so much you let him knock you up.
              (\__/)
              (='.'=)
              (")_(") This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination.

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              • #8
                that's a whole 'nother issue

                a man gives his seed... keyword "gives"

                his choice was made

                a woman is giving her body to the baby while pregnant, she needs to make the choice wether to give that body or not... that choice isn't always able to be made before the deed (even birth control isn't fail safe)

                I disagree with abortion, yes

                but I am prochoice

                a man can change his mind, by running off

                the situations and commitment to life are totally different between the man and the woman.
                Monkey!!!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Japher
                  that's a whole 'nother issue

                  a man gives his seed... keyword "gives"

                  his choice was made

                  a woman is giving her body to the baby while pregnant, she needs to make the choice wether to give that body or not... that choice isn't always able to be made before the deed (even birth control isn't fail safe)

                  I disagree with abortion, yes

                  but I am prochoice

                  a man can change his mind, by running off

                  the situations and commitment to life are totally different between the man and the woman.
                  That's such bull****. The man makes his choice by having sex, but the woman doesn't? The woman makes her choice later on? Why can't the man make his choice later on?

                  You say the woman is giving her body, but the man is, in effect, giving his body as well, as a part of the value of his labor (ie, his salary).

                  If the man gives his choice during sex, then so does the women. Simple as that.
                  “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
                  - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I agree with Japher.

                    The cost of pregancy for women is vast compared to the cost for men. An abortion is sitll most of a time a traumatic situation for women. There is no "equality" issue here.

                    I support abortion rights because the fetus must gestate for 9 months inside the woman. The woman bears the biological cost. The woman also bears societal costs, such as not being able to work during that time, plus all the health complications associated with pregancy, including death. The man bears NO cost, exscept currently the possibility of financial costs. These whinners want to make it utterly cost free for men.

                    Sorry, but nothing is totally free. Don't want to get saddled with child support, always wear a condom, and ask if she is on the pill. Otherwise, keep it in your pants.
                    If you don't like reality, change it! me
                    "Oh no! I am bested!" Drake
                    "it is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong" Voltaire
                    "Patriotism is a pernecious, psychopathic form of idiocy" George Bernard Shaw

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Tell you what. Compare the current going rate for a surrogate mother, to 18 years of child support for a man.

                      Which do you think is higher ...
                      <Reverend> IRC is just multiplayer notepad.
                      I like your SNOOPY POSTER! - While you Wait quote.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        The cost of pregancy for women is vast compared to the cost for men. An abortion is sitll most of a time a traumatic situation for women. There is no "equality" issue here.


                        How much is part of a man's salary for 18 years? Is the cost of pregnancy for women that much more vast then? And shouldn't the cost of pregnancy be something the woman has to weigh? Why drag an unwilling man into the cost/benefit analysis?

                        You give a choice to one party, you should give it to the other.

                        Sorry, but nothing is totally free. Don't want to get saddled with child support, always wear a condom, and ask if she is on the pill. Otherwise, keep it in your pants.


                        Sorry, but nothing is totally free. Don't want to get saddled with child, always use the pill, and ask if he's wearing a condom. Otherwise, keep it in your pants and don't ask for an abortion.
                        “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
                        - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          f the man gives his choice during sex, then so does the women. Simple as that.
                          That is such bull sheit...

                          well, not totally

                          It is my opinion that everyone should be responsible for their own actions. In a perfect world any little beitch who gets knocked up because she's a whore would be forced to carry it to term.

                          I don't think that the woman can blindly dismiss sex by saying "oh well, if I get pregnant I can just get rid of it in the morning or make it's daddy pay it (and my) way"

                          Still, the man "gives" his seed at the time of sex. He "gives" it to her. He has no say after that. So when a dude has sex he needs to be concerned about what she will do if she gets pregnant. Simple as that.
                          Monkey!!!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Still, the man "gives" his seed at the time of sex. He "gives" it to her. He has no say after that.


                            He has no say because we give him no say. The woman "gives" her body to the man at the time of sex. She "gives" it up to him. But she has a 'say' after that (though before Roe, in most states, she didn't).
                            “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
                            - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
                              How much is part of a man's salary for 18 years? Is the cost of pregnancy for women that much more vast then? And shouldn't the cost of pregnancy be something the woman has to weigh? Why drag an unwilling man into the cost/benefit analysis?

                              You give a choice to one party, you should give it to the other.
                              HOw much is a portion of the women's salary for 18 years plus (taking college into account) if she keeps the child? (Kids sent for adoption are a non-issue). You act as if the woman paid nothing. If she keeps the kid, she will also be paying as well.

                              As for "unwilling man", right. If the man is so "unwilling", then he should

                              a. Wear a condom
                              b. Ask her if she is on the pill.

                              I don't care about idiots who let their penis overwhelm their ability to ask a simple question and wear a profalactic.

                              Sorry, but nothing is totally free. Don't want to get saddled with child, always use the pill, and ask if he's wearing a condom. Otherwise, keep it in your pants and don't ask for an abortion.
                              If the woman gets an abortion, the man pays nothing. So what exactly is that little bit above mean?
                              If you don't like reality, change it! me
                              "Oh no! I am bested!" Drake
                              "it is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong" Voltaire
                              "Patriotism is a pernecious, psychopathic form of idiocy" George Bernard Shaw

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