Bush, Chertoff warned about catastrophe and possible levee breaches - new video

[Kontiki]

I'm sure some men had a hand in the issues as well, Oerdin.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by DanS
The one thing I don't like this is that the AP said Bush had been warned about the levees being "breached," when Bush actually was warned about them being "topped."

I agree. It was my impression that all previous catastrophy models regarding Hurricanes of class 3-4 or greater were looking at the potential of lake Pontchantrain flooding from tidal surges overflowing the levees. The point of levees actually failing and breaking I think is quite another matter.

Regardless the admin gets low marks but point that is trying to be made by teh press to show Bush as a lying POS vis a vis Bush's statement "I don't think anybody anticipated the breach of the levees" is abit different than saying "I don't think anyone anticipated the levees to be topped".

Point of the matter is in the immediate aftermath of Katrina all was reported as OK that the levees were not in fact topped and not until hours later was the leveee breaking/failing stroy coming to the fore.

All that being said the discussion of levees being topped was a point of concern and justified mobilizing as much resources as required. I doubt highly that they were told to stand down based upon early reports that the levees were not indeed topped. Piss poor crisis management on all levels, local through federal.

It just that this Bush lied meme gets old quickly when the quotes clearly show otherwise.

[Ted Striker]

Levees topped = water spills in the city

Levees breached = water spills in the city

Drown me now or drown me sooner, same thing

Speaking of topped, surely this same amount of leeway (aka legal/semantics mumbo jumbo) was granted when Clinton was getting his dick sucked?

[DanS]

From the AP on this point (via Drudge). Pretty underhanded printing the "clarification" on Friday night and thereby burying it.

AP FRIDAY NIGHT CLARIFICATION ON BUSH/KATRINA VIDEO
Fri Mar 03 2006 19:48:29 ET

Clarification: Katrina-Video story
ASSOCIATED PRESS

WASHINGTON (AP) _ In a March 1 story, The Associated Press reported that federal disaster officials warned President Bush and his homeland security chief before Hurricane Katrina struck that the storm could breach levees in New Orleans, citing confidential video footage of an Aug. 28 briefing among U.S. officials.

The Army Corps of Engineers considers a breach a hole developing in a levee rather than an overrun. The story should have made clear that Bush was warned about floodwaters overrunning the levees, rather than the levees breaking.

The day before the storm hit, Bush was told there were grave concerns that the levees could be overrun. It wasn't until the next morning, as the storm was hitting, that Michael Brown, then head of the Federal Emergency Management Agency, said Bush had inquired about reports of breaches. Bush did not participate in that briefing.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Ted Striker
Levees topped = water spills in the city

Levees breached = water spills in the city

Drown me now or drown me sooner, same thing

Speaking of topped, surely this same amount of leeway (aka legal/semantics mumbo jumbo) was granted when Clinton was getting his dick sucked?

Ogie has a hobby of splitting hairs over semantic nonsense.

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by DanS
From the AP on this point (via Drudge). Pretty underhanded printing the "clarification" on Friday night and thereby burying it.

AP FRIDAY NIGHT CLARIFICATION ON BUSH/KATRINA VIDEO
Fri Mar 03 2006 19:48:29 ET

Clarification: Katrina-Video story
ASSOCIATED PRESS

WASHINGTON (AP) _ In a March 1 story, The Associated Press reported that federal disaster officials warned President Bush and his homeland security chief before Hurricane Katrina struck that the storm could breach levees in New Orleans, citing confidential video footage of an Aug. 28 briefing among U.S. officials.

The Army Corps of Engineers considers a breach a hole developing in a levee rather than an overrun. The story should have made clear that Bush was warned about floodwaters overrunning the levees, rather than the levees breaking.

The day before the storm hit, Bush was told there were grave concerns that the levees could be overrun. It wasn't until the next morning, as the storm was hitting, that Michael Brown, then head of the Federal Emergency Management Agency, said Bush had inquired about reports of breaches. Bush did not participate in that briefing.

Sure beats sissy stuff like disgracing a decorated war veteran by Swiftboating him or getting revenge by outting a CIA agent.

[GhengisFarb™]

Originally posted by Ted Striker
Levees topped = water spills in the city

Levees breached = water spills in the city

Drown me now or drown me sooner, same thing

No, no. BIG difference. High tech illustration:

OOOOOOOOOO
XOOOOOOOOO
XXOOOOOOOO
XXXOOOOOOO
XXXOOOOOOO

Where "X" equals levee and "O" equals water (Lake Ponchatrain) and New Orleans is to the left.

The top row is what goes into the city if the levee is topped which everyone knew would happen. ALL the rows go into the city if the levee is breached.

The pumps could handle the water if it was topped and did so, they started failing after the levee got breached as they couldn't keep up anymore.

[Ted Striker]

I'm sure they "could" have.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by MrFun



Ogie has a hobby of splitting hairs over semantic nonsense.

You'll note I did not argue that teh Feds and others needed to be at the ready with all available resources in case flooding occurred by the mechanism they thought would happen (that being levees being overflowing). And it would seem they were ill prepared to handle even that eventuality.

But as Genghis Farb illustrates a completely different kettle of fish and level of catastrophe then when levees out an out fail.

But fortunately we can always count on the knee jerk hate Bush crowd to keep us abreast of each and every mischaracterization.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Originally posted by Ted Striker
Levees topped = water spills in the city
Levees breached = water spills in the city
..., same thing

Nope, different by SEVERAL ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE in the amount of flood water, damage, and hazard to life to deal with.

[The Emperor Fabulous]

Alright, that's all valid.

But there is still a great deal of damaging material on that video. Bush never asks questions. Michael Brown, an Administration scapegoat (who, it is true, was way out of his league in the aftermath) seems to be taking this job very seriously, to a point that Bush doesn't seem to be taking it. Concerns about dealing with, among other things, the Superdome.

This shouldn't all be just swept under the rug because an AP editor made a headline error.

[Myrddin]

How involved should a president get with operational issues?

'The buck stops here' is a great line, but in reality the president shouldn't be solving every problem but making sure that he has the right people in place to solve the problems for him

[chequita guevara]

With an issue this big, he shoulda been asking questions and mobilizing resources. Like Brownie, however, he's outta his depth.

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
Nope, different by SEVERAL ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE in the amount of flood water, damage, and hazard to life to deal with.

Nope, once the Law of Diminishing Returns kicks in it's all moot at that point. Those levees could not handle the amount of water coming in, breached or not.


Despite what your talk radio shows are telling you guys.

[chequita guevara]

Actually, topping leads to breaching in very rapid order. So if they expected it to top, they should have expected it to breach. That's what caused the first breach, actually. The second breach was caused by subsidence; the water weighed more than the earth trying to hold is back, so the earth gave.