ID card bill passes

[Az]

CCTV cameras fricking rule, though. I don't understand what's the beef with them. Wish we had more of them around.

[Dauphin]

I've never heard of a case of their abuse. Until I do, or hear a plausible scenario where they could, I don't see a problem either.

[Az]

They're simply replacing policemen on the streets in terms of eyes. If they were needed by a secret government plan to silence opposition or some ****, the same actions against activists could've been taken with a couple of guys. In fact, they'd probably still do it with guys - CCTV isn't really the tool for this.

[Zoid]

Originally posted by Starchild
My university can print a campus card ID in under a minute that has my picture on it, a unique identifying number, my date of birth, and carries information about my status at university. For free.

So why it would cost £30-£100 for a government ID card is beyond me.

No, that kinda sucks. It´s bad enough to force IDs on people without making them pay through the nose for it at the same time... A new ID in Sweden costs about £27, but if you got your drivers license this is renewed every ten years for £10.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Az
They're simply replacing policemen on the streets in terms of eyes. If they were needed by a secret government plan to silence opposition or some ****, the same actions against activists could've been taken with a couple of guys. In fact, they'd probably still do it with guys - CCTV isn't really the tool for this.

A policeman can't exactly record every move of every person around during his watch. He also can't transmit this information with perfect accuracy over and over, even decades after.

[Az]

And the problem with this is....

[Spiffor]

...that if a totalitarian regimes comes to power (or if our regimes slowly drift toward totalitarianism by themselves), it'll have the ability to investigate the every move of each of its citizen, and this for a very long time past. It'll be immensely useful, if the regime wants to know about some individual's daily routine, or if it wants to blackmail it.

Remember that East Germany didn't merely spy on political activists. It spied on pretty much every individual. If one of our countries is to ever have a stasi-like police in the future, our current democratic regimes are already creating the databases it'll use with glee.

[Spiffor]

If you combine the omnipresence of CCTV with the fact that every phone call and every move on internet is recordable, and with the fact that the State has your biometric info as well as all other kinds of personal info... Well, you see there isn't much about you that is hidden, except maybe the exact time at which you scratch your butt at home.

And if the state has a nearly complete knowledge of you, it also has the potential to nearly completely control you. And it'll do so if it feels that you're a bad guy.

The problem with that is that the definition of a bad guy can very well change to something that doesn't fit either of us...

[Dauphin]

There is also a risk that if I show up on some CCTV footage the Terminator will knows where I am/was/will be!!!!


Most footage is destroyed in short order. It seems absurd to me to deny the use of CCTV now, for fear of an unlikely but sinister political use of it in the future. Should such a future happen it is far more concerning than the use of CCTV in the now, considering the vast majority of CCTV now will be destroyed within the next six months or sooner. Is the revolution starting earlier than planned?

[Az]

Remember that East Germany didn't merely spy on political activists. It spied on pretty much every individual.

Damn, the East Germans should never have agreed to the CCTV, look where it got them, i.e. own goal.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Dauphin
Most footage is destroyed in short order. It seems absurd to me to deny the use of CCTV now, for fear of an unlikely but sinister political use of it in the future. Should such a future happen it is far more concerning than the use of CCTV in the now, considering the vast majority of CCTV now will be destroyed within the next six months or sooner. Is the revolution starting earlier than planned?

And if one day it is decided that this footage should be kept longer? And maybe not be told to the general public this is happening? How can you be sure? Do you need CCTV's to show you that CCTV footage is being destroyed?

[Az]

and if George Bush would use the huge military budget, and his overwhelming executive powers and favorable Supreme court to turn the US into a military dictatorship?

and if and if and if and if

[Spiffor]

What I'm seeing in the west today are:
- Increasing leeway given to domestic espionage
- Increasing leeway given to the prosecution, with easier police procedures
- Increased leeway given to police to do controls and checks.

Oh, sure, we're far from being totalitarian yet. But the current trend doesn't look good at all. And I'm not talking in "ifs" here, but in a very real trend that has become extremely clear since Sept. 11 in the whole west, and which had its roots already in place in Europe before (can't tell for the US).

I don't see anything indicative of the trend stopping.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Az
and if George Bush would use the huge military budget, and his overwhelming executive powers and favorable Supreme court to turn the US into a military dictatorship?

and if and if and if and if

As Berz reminds us so, the US framers would be shocked at how the 4th Amendment ('unreasonable search and seizure') has been eviserated by small, gradual steps. It is only looking at the entire history that we can see it.

If we just don't care when small gradual taking of liberty is done, we may realize that we've given up a lot of our rights without even realizing it because of the gradual taking of them.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Spiffor
What I'm seeing in the west today are:
- Increasing leeway given to domestic espionage
- Increasing leeway given to the prosecution, with easier police procedures
- Increased leeway given to police to do controls and checks.

Oh, sure, we're far from being totalitarian yet. But the current trend doesn't look good at all. And I'm not talking in "ifs" here, but in a very real trend that has become extremely clear since Sept. 11 in the whole west, and which had its roots already in place in Europe before (can't tell for the US).

I don't see anything indicative of the trend stopping.

Yep.. bingo. We are gradually giving up our rights. It may not seem much now, but it builds up over time.