The world is funny when people have nothing to do but protest

[Elok]

No, I just have the ability to see things from more than one perspective. I have a faint suspicion that the people in the Muslim world are in fact human and have lives they would like to live. At the moment, they are ignorant, frightened, and angry, and thus lashing out indiscriminately, led on by a few big-headed troublemakers. Plus they have a long and bitter history with us.

Which is not to say you aren't probably right; in all likelihood, they like to gather in mosques at night so they can practice twirling their mustachios and develop their sinister plan to have their way with 72 of our women each.

[Odin]

Originally posted by Agathon
I voted #1 because I hate America.

Bad Commie, you're only supposed to hate the capitalist pigdogs in charge using "terrah" and religion as the opiate of the masses.

[Zkribbler]

Re: The world is funny when people have nothing to do but protest

Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous

My question: Which is stupider?

Creating a cartoon that makes Muslims feel offended.

OR

Certain Muslims wanting to KILL people from countries that published said cartoon.

Number 2 is stupider. A harsh letter to the editor, I can see, but murdering someone?? That's just a little too emphatic for my tastes.

[Vince278]

If they want to be treated like human beings they will need to start acting like them first.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Agathon
I voted #1 because I hate America.

This post convinced me to vote #1

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Vince278
If they want to be treated like human beings they will need to start acting like them first.

Who are "they"?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Elok
The previous two wound up in the exact same place, I don't see why this one won't. But whatever.

WRT the Jews never reacting this way: to be fair, the Jews haven't been as powerless as the Muslims are to fight back for the past fifty-odd years. They know America's got their back if the Arabs try any serious offensives, assuming they couldn't beat them back by themselves like they've been doing on and off for decades.

Whereas the Muslim world has been getting invaded a lot in recent years. We have neither a reason to vent our spleen on really nasty cartoons, nor a reason to fear all-out invasion. They do, or at least think they do.

With all due respect Elok, Id say that looking at all Jews over the last 50 years, and all Muslims over the last 50 years, its really not true that Jews are more powerful.

Im trying to think of examples of muslim countries being taken over by non muslim ones in the last 50 years. 1. The USSR in Afghanistan - well, while I think that was a dangerous act that we were right to oppose, it was done through local communist party politics - the way the USSR took over Czecho, for ex. Youd have to say Christians were powerless. If there was a strong enough communist party in Israel for a similar USSR takeover, I doubt the US would have been any more effective in stopping it than in Afghanistan.
2. The US in Afghanistan - we seem to forget that US troops did NOT takeover Kabul in November 2001. Afghan soldiers of the Northern Alliance did.
3. That leaves Iraq. A single case.

[lord of the mark]

If anything the Jews dont react this way cause we're NOT powerful.

Imagine suggesting a mass takeover by Jewish mobs of the Saudi embassy in DC cause of the stuff in Saudi papers. I can imagine the old JDL types trying something like that. The leaders of the mainstream Jewish community would be the FIRST to say "Sh*t no, dont do this, it will get us into huge trouble"

In fact some years ago Jews DID protest at the Soviet embassy, for free emigration. They chained themselvses to the gates, and when they were arrested, went peacefully to jail, - they were engaging in civil disobedience.

[Elok]

Well, Palestine WAS inhabited by Arabs before it was given to Israel. Not a lot of Arabs, not densely populated, but it was technically theirs. The whole Arab world swarmed in to try and take it back, and got trounced (I'm not voicing support for the Palestinians here; I think the whole situation over there is too complex to take one side over). The U.S., the Great Satan itself, backed Israel all through the following years. Afghanistan's invasion by the USSR, while not Christian, was nevertheless from "the west," and I suspect they don't really make fine distinctions beyond that. I know we Orthodox Christians tend not to, though it's not really fair. In the eighties, you had Iraq vs. Iran. We sided with the secular state of Iraq against religious Iran. Then, within a few years, we invaded Iraq for the first time. It was after Iraq invaded Kuwait, but we were, yet again, interfering in the internal politics of the Muslim world. Afghanistan's overthrow of late was officially accomplished by the NA, but we're all familiar with the phrase "tools of the oppressor." And the latest Iraq incident has been a mess, with our support of the shyster Chalabi, the various torture scandals, et cetera.

The Jews don't turn violent because they have some influence in the West. People listen when they protest. They own a lot of things in America, they have lots of activist groups looking out for them, and Western Europe is still pretty accomodating out of Holocaust guilt if nothing else. Holocaust denial is actually illegal in many places.

And the Muslims/Arabs? If there's an Anti-Muslim Defamation League, they don't have much power or influence. They own little of importance over here. They get in trouble for rioting, just as the Jews would if they did, but if they didn't riot they probably wouldn't get any attention at all. And even before 9/11, there was an undercurrent of anti-Arab sentiment in France, wasn't there? Le Pen can't be that new to politics.

They've been complaining about the West Bank and suchlike for years and it hasn't gotten them much. America, perceived as Israel's big brother, is content to mouth platitudes until the protesters turn violent, at which point The West intervenes, usually to negotiate some kind of cease-fire with compromises of some sort. Violence appears to work at least as well as nonviolence in getting them what they want, from their perspective.

[Elok]

Just for emphasis, I don't want to seem like a booster for the Muslim world. I'm just trying to look at it from their perspective for a change. There are two sides to every story, at the very least.

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by Spiffor

Who are "they"?

I assume he means the French. And Communists.

That said, Muslims in other countries seem to suffer from the same "complete lack of any geographical sense" the accuse Americans of, as we got protestors in front of an American airbase protesting over cartoons in a Danish newspaper.

[lord of the mark]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by Elok

Well, Palestine WAS inhabited by Arabs before it was given to Israel. Not a lot of Arabs, not densely populated, but it was technically theirs. The whole Arab world swarmed in to try and take it back, and got trounced (I'm not voicing support for the Palestinians here; I think the whole situation over there is too complex to take one side over). The U.S., the Great Satan itself, backed Israel all through the following years.

You said last 50 years. Israel has been a state for 58 years. During that period it was arabs attacking Israel.

Afghanistan's invasion by the USSR, while not Christian, was nevertheless from "the west," and I suspect they don't really make fine distinctions beyond that.

My point was not the the USSR wasnt western, but that what they did wasnt really a straight out invasion. It originated in Afghan politics of previous decades.

I know we Orthodox Christians tend not to, though it's not really fair. In the eighties, you had Iraq vs. Iran. We sided with the secular state of Iraq against religious Iran. Then, within a few years, we invaded Iraq for the first time. It was after Iraq invaded Kuwait, but we were, yet again, interfering in the internal politics of the Muslim world.

Im sorry, but taking sides in a conflict isnt invading.

You seem to be listing everytime we interfere in Arab politics. If you think the US doesnt interfere in Israeli internal politics, i would suggest you are somewhat naive.

The Jews don't turn violent because they have some influence in the West. People listen when they protest. They own a lot of things in America, they have lots of activist groups looking out for them, and Western Europe is still pretty accomodating out of Holocaust guilt if nothing else. Holocaust denial is actually illegal in many places.

I would suggest you are incorrect. From what I can gather from within the Jewish community, we dont protest certain things violently cause we are WEAK, not because we are strong. We use what strength we have. If we are as strong as you say, why do we not get the Saudis and the Egyptians to stop antisemitic cartoons in their STATE SPONSORED press? You seem to imply that we dont protest in front of the Saudi embassy cause the ADL has taken care of it. Well ive got news for you, the ADL has NOT taken care of it. Western Europe is hardly accommodating. Western Europe isnt antisemitic, out of a general sense of liberalism and decency, and a strong sense that antisemitism would undermine their own democratic regimes. Not out of deference to Jewish power. Holocaust denial is illegal in Germany, for many good reasons, one of which being how threatening that would be to good order in Germany. It is not illegal elsewhere in europe, AFAIK.

The fact that a minimum of decency is seen as proof of Jewish "power" is a sign of how weak we really are.

Now of course we have lobbies, we write our congressmen, we make donations to campaigns, we speak out, and we do lots of things citizens in our society are supposed to do. And yes being articulate and well organized is very helpful in this democracy. But if we burnt embassies all that influence would vanish in the blink of an eye. So its not so much that we are weak, but our strength is fragile, and requires playing by the rules of the game. muslims, part of a community of 2 billion around the world, can afford to break rules in ways we cannot.

And the Muslims/Arabs? If there's an Anti-Muslim Defamation League, they don't have much power or influence.

CAIR definitely has influence, and theyre more powerful in europe. In any case i think 20 arab states, and at leat 20 other muslim states, represents greater power than a lobby in Washington.

They get in trouble for rioting, just as the Jews would if they did,

Im not talking about individuals getting in trouble, im talking about the destruction of all power and influence. The return of antisemitism to the mainstream.


[q]but if they didn't riot they probably wouldn't get any attention at all. [q/]
I disagree.

And even before 9/11, there was an undercurrent of anti-Arab sentiment in France, wasn't there? Le Pen can't be that new to politics.

anti immigrant politcs is routine around the world. I dont see what it has to do with what we're discussing.

They've been complaining about the West Bank and suchlike for years and it hasn't gotten them much.

Not getting your way doesnt equate to not being listened too. From 1967 to 1990 they supported the PLO which opposed the existence of the state of Israel, and thats why they didnt get much. Even when there were ISraeli govts that would have been eager negotiate. AS soon as they relented on that, they got Oslo - as for the content of that something since Oslo, thats way to complex to answer here. I can only suggest you need to read more about the ME.

America, perceived as Israel's big brother, is content to mouth platitudes until the protesters turn violent, at which point The West intervenes, usually to negotiate some kind of cease-fire with compromises of some sort.

Thats simply not a true charecterization of the wests role in the last 50 years.

Violence appears to work at least as well as nonviolence in getting them what they want, from their perspective.

Tell me when they tried non-violence, and not violence? Some have cited that Israel cracked down right after 1967 on peaceful general strikes in the territories, but those general strikes were in support of the PLO, which was at the time a violent terrorist group that called for Israels destruction.

[Lonestar]

I'm gonna issue a fatwa on Bill Watterson unless he starts making Calvin &Hobbes again...think we could get these guys to riot for us?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Elok
Just for emphasis, I don't want to seem like a booster for the Muslim world. I'm just trying to look at it from their perspective for a change. There are two sides to every story, at the very least.

I know that quite well. I would suggest that you dont know this story quite well enough.


May I suggest:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0679765638/ref=pd_sim_b_5/103-3584629-9520612?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance&n=283155

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0374199736/qid=1139263513/sr=2-2/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_2/103-3584629-9520612?s=books&v=glance&n=283155

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0691119821/ref=pd_bxgy_text_b/103-3584629-9520612?%5Fencoding=UTF8

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Elok
No, I just have the ability to see things from more than one perspective. I have a faint suspicion that the people in the Muslim world are in fact human and have lives they would like to live

i wouldnt at all disagree with that.


But I must take issue with your view of Jewish power.