Danish embassy invaded

[Elok]

Well, Dubya's a moron, isn't he? If an ape throws his crap at you, it's because he's a stupid ape, and doesn't know how to behave amongst humans. We expect members of the media in an educated, modern European country to know better than President Goofus.

[Pekka]

Perfect analogy, should we also except more from extremists than this?

You still think this is about the cartoon?

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Pekka
You still think this is about the cartoon?

After having spent hours on French Muslim websites, I do think it is. My general impression is that the cartoons are seen as a major provocation that comes from a west that is so arrogant that it believes nothing can happen to it.

[Elok]

Agh, I thought I was done with this stupid argument...oh well.

No, I don't think the rioters are exempt from responsibility. I don't think of them as "religious extremists" so much...I don't know if it got press elsewhere, but the mob in Beirut actually threw rocks at the local clerics who tried to stop them. Generally speaking, zealots will at least listen to their own local priests.

It seems to me that it's gone beyond purely religious into generally cultural outrage, if it ever was entirely religious at all. The prohibition against depicting the Prophet was meant to discourage idolatry, which obviously is not a problem with the cartoons. Muhammad was their hero, in addition to being a religious figure. He's the Arab George Washington, sort of. The violation of the religious taboo is adding insult to injury. All this is not meant to excuse them.

However, given the EXTREME state of tension between the Western and Muslim worlds, and the fact that protests in the Muslim world have turned violent on a regular basis in the past, can you honestly tell me that nobody saw even the slightest chance of this coming to pass? I don't know if Salman Rushdie is still alive, but even if he's dead they've probably got a fatwa out to mutilate his corpse. The artists had a reason for publishing their work anonymously. They knew very well that it was a sensitive subject, and I doubt the reaction they were afraid of was a lawsuit.

[Pekka]

No. It's about extremists (the ones who do action now) not being able to control themselves like civilized people. TOday it's cartoon, tomorrow it's something else. Some of these extremists are not going to stop unless we all install full sharia laws in our nations.

People get offended every day, why should they be special, because they threaten with violence? All the more reasons to defend our values.

That's what I mean it's not about the cartoons. If someone gets THIS upset about cartoons, then that person and many of us aren't meant to live in the same land. If they can't handle it, there's no reason why we should start back peddling until we have no freedoms ourselves. Go throw a burkha over your gf today, why don't you?

Dealing with extremists, how do you settle with them? YOU DON'T, because they don't accept you or your ways. So your solution is to stop existing as we are now? That's extremist appeasing. They can be pissed off, so what, the world is pissed off every day. Who cares?

[Pekka]

Elok, well, why don't you go live your non-offensive life style in a basement, since I might find you offensive. Go on. I find you offensive. Stop posting in this thread. I'm feeling violent.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Pekka
No. It's about extremists (the ones who do action now) not being able to control themselves like civilized people. TOday it's cartoon, tomorrow it's something else. Some of these extremists are not going to stop unless we all install full sharia laws in our nations.

I really do think that the ordinary people who are olutraged these days, are so because of the cartoons.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Spiffor

After having spent hours on French Muslim websites, I do think it is. My general impression is that the cartoons are seen as a major provocation that comes from a west that is so arrogant that it believes nothing can happen to it.

Yes. I thought that was obvious to everyone.

[Pekka]

Spiffor, yes but they are not burning embassies, are they? They are handling it like civilized people.

If you want a world where you can't be offended, well, it just won't happen if people live in it.

[Elok]

This is the internet, foo'. It's a bastion of free speech precisely because it's impossible to become violent online. In the real world, some people start punching when they lose their tempers, and sometimes they don't even turn violent against the right people. Some groups of people even have a history of such indiscriminate violence, which is why it's better not to blatantly insult them, free speech or not. So

[Pekka]

you already made my point. You're the guy who gave his lunch money to bullies and you still keep giving. Like I said, basement is pretty secure place to live.

I've never tolerated terrorism and extremism from any side and I keep following that guideline. I bet you apologized for 911 too, I mean, some of them were pissed off at the US.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Pekka
Spiffor, yes but they are not burning embassies, are they? They are handling it like civilized people.

Yes. But I think that most of those who are burning embassies are people who're not necessarily organized, who got extremely heated because of that "provocation" (in their mind, it is clearly a provocation whose sole aim was to insult what the Muslims hold dearest). Of course, their rage then was used by politically organized groups, which made the burnings of the embassies possible.

IMO, most of the people who burnt the embassies (as opposed to those who manipulated them) don't care about the domestic situation in western countries. They care about their own world, and they believe that they have been attacked in a most violent manner. The reasoning I've encountered is as follows: As if the physical attacks in Palestine, Iraq, and soon Iran weren't enough, the West now attacks them in a symbolic fashion, over what they hold dearest (or at least: over the dearest thing of the week).

[Pekka]

Yes yes yes. So what? There's lots more room in the basement if you don't want to offend anyone. They better get used to the idea that there are different kind of people outside their nations, who believe in different things, adn have this thing called freedom of press, freedom of speech and freedom to express yourself.

Anything else from the apologizers? Would you like to explain how bananas are offensive to the santa claus followers? Maybe ban bananas?

[Spiffor]

Pekka: you don't understand my take on the issue. I'm favourable to the right to blasphemy, and I seriously hope that France's offensive newspaper charlie Hebdo will publish some kind of cartoon displaying an orgy between Mohammed, Jesus and Moses (it will be in character for them to do so )

However, I'm explaining the perspective of the others as I saw it today. I don't think they're right, not at all (they're believers, which is enough for me). But I think that you are wrong when you describe how they think, and I explained why.

[Chemical Ollie]

There were some rumours in Scandinavian media that neo-nazis had plans to burn the Choran on RÃ¥dhuspladsen. They never did.

But when these rumours reached Egypt, it had turned into: "The Danish government will forcefully confiscate all Chorans in Denmark and burn them" (according to a Swedish radio reporter).