Fixing oil ? What's your approach?

[Japher]

I always make that mistake... still, at least my point about hybrids makes more sense. We can't fix greed, only pander to it or take it all away.

[Arrian]

Yeah, I guess it does. Lower consumption due to better gas mileage might not have an impact on price @ the pump. It has other positives, though.

-Arrian

[Japher]

Necessity is the mother of invention. What will it take for us to finally bother to invent, or rather use, an alternate fuel?

If everyone drove hybrids I betcha we'd still be paying the same amount per mile for gas as we are now.

Definitly need to get away from it all together, or at least present some alternatives.

Hybrids just slow down the inevitable, it has nothing to do with us moving away from gas dependency.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Kidicious


The price would have to be set in consideration of the highest current cost of production, not the lower. And exploration costs would have to be considered.

hmmm-- but there is ALWAYS an additional barrell that can be brought into production at a slightly greater cost. So where do you say "This is the high cost where we stop"

[Arrian]

If everyone drove hybrids I betcha we'd still be paying the same amount per mile for gas as we are now.

With a side benifit of less emissions. Cleaner air and all that.

Hybrids just slow down the inevitable

Agreed. They're just a baby step, not a solution.

-Arrian

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Kidicious


Big consumers and big businesses have a lot of power to negotiate prices even without signing long term contracts. Look at Wal Mart and how they get low prices from their suppliers. There are a lot of oil producers that would be very eager to supply a large cartel. The cartel would have plenty of negotiating power.

But Walmart would have exactly Zero bargaining power if its supplier can sell all of what it makes elsewhere at a higher price. Its power comes from the fact it buys so much and the supplier cannot sell so much elsewhere. Often the supplier can be profitable through volume production and economies of scale which are often less relevant to the oil industry.


The second difference is that WALMART usually doesn't need a specific product or its business could largely shut down.


I do agree that a cohesive consumers cartel COULD have clout but its problem is what can it do. Its not like they can threaten OPEC with buying elsewhere . . . and in a stand-off, I believe that the producers could go without their cash flow for far longer than the consumers could do without their oil.

Personally I doubt anyone would have the guts to find out. It would be horrific to contemplate the economic impacts

[Japher]

With a side benifit of less emissions. Cleaner air and all that.

Which has nothing to do with the problem being discussed; cheaper fuel, not cleaner.

[Arrian]

Agreed. I've gone on a tangent. HUSH.

-Arrian

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Japher


Which has nothing to do with the problem being discussed; cheaper fuel, not cleaner.

and actually I wanted to stay away from the topic of gasoline. While the prices are linked, gasoline pricing has a whole bunch of separate issues . I was looking to stick to oil for the sake of simplicity.

[Arrian]

Ok, then, back to increasing supply and/or decreasing demand, then. Globally.

-Arrian

[Japher]

the oil must flow...

it's all about greed. there is nothing we can do about it.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Flubber
hmmm-- but there is ALWAYS an additional barrell that can be brought into production at a slightly greater cost. So where do you say "This is the high cost where we stop"

With a normal supply curve the costs increase exponentially compared to the quantity. I'm don't know what the particular supply curve looks like though. I'm assuming that a small amount of oil is produced at the very high cost.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Flubber
I do agree that a cohesive consumers cartel COULD have clout but its problem is what can it do. Its not like they can threaten OPEC with buying elsewhere . . . and in a stand-off, I believe that the producers could go without their cash flow for far longer than the consumers could do without their oil.

Good points but I don't think the producers really have the will to cut off supply either.

[Dinner]

One thing is for sure and that's Bush's approach is a total failure. Last night's speech was just the standard Republican tactic of saying you want to do something but then making sure nothing of consquence ever gets done. Raising CAFE standards would help reduce our oil dependence, modernizing building codes would reduce our energy dependence, increasing the tax on gasoline would decrease consumption, building mass transit would decrease dependence... Hell, a million things would actually help but all Bush came up with was his typical window dressing nonsense which is designed to plaicate the ignorant masses without actually doing anything.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia
bush is right - we should go with ethanol, and start at first replacing our mid east sources with ethanol, and then go from there.

True, more ethanol would be great especially if it was produced using waste products (like corn stocks) instead of food or animal feed. We should have every car running on E85 especially since it is mostly domestically produced and the cars designed to use it are already mass produced in the millions. The problem continues to be that there are no distribution points (read: gas stations) which actually carry E85. There are a grand total of two such gas stations in California last I checked. It should be mandated that every gas station must carry E85 or they face massive fines. If we build it the market will develop just as it did in Brazil.

Bush's plans don't do this. In fact they do less then nothing since they don't provide for more distribution points which is the main thing stopping E85 from gaining market share. GM alone has put out 16 million FFV vehicles in the last decade and a half but no one fills them with E85 because there is no where to buy it.