Separation of Church and State

[StarLightDeath]

As for you being an atheist... riiiiiight. And bin Laden is Catholic.

If you try to challenge me on this one you are going to lose. However, I'd find it really amusing so by all means knock yourself out.

That's why you've seen women priests in the Catholic Church... oh wait!

No, I see nuns and I see their faces.

You do realize that in Pakistan, Bangladesh, and Indonesia (all Muslim countries) they have had Prime Ministers who were female, right? Not saying they are more advanced on womens' rights, but if they are so backwards, that is quite an embarassment to the US, isn't it (highest elected office a woman has held here is Minority Speaker)?

The lady in Pakistan is now in exile. In the Bangladesh government the Prime minister is appointed by the President who is elected by the legislature so it can't be compared to our method of elections. It doesn't really matter though because these are all third world countries and the culture still remains the same...so no, it's not an embarassment. I also think Condi Rice has a nice chance to win in 2008 and I hope she runs so maybe we'll have a female president soon.

And what really is the difference between electrocuting someone and cutting his head off? The form of Death Penalty makes a difference to you?

Actually yes it does. Also, we actually have a legitimate legal system that doesn't follow the laws of a religion. Why aren't you over in the middle east protesting for a separation of church and state?

[Imran Siddiqui]

No, I see nuns and I see their faces.

When I was in Pakistan, I saw every woman's face. Do you have a point?

It doesn't really matter though because these are all third world countries and the culture still remains the same

It doesn't matter... because... because... well because it doesn't! Waaah!

So third world countries having female leaders far before the US doesn't bother you any? If they are even more pitiful, doesn't that make the US's lack of female leaders even worse?

Also, we actually have a legitimate legal system that doesn't follow the laws of a religion.

Wait, wait... so we are a Christian nation with a Christian culture, but our legal system doesn't follow laws of a religion? Which is it? The legal system isn't a part of the culture?

Ah, having your cake and eating it too.

Why aren't you over in the middle east protesting for a separation of church and state?

Because it works better in a SECULAR state like the US which accepts people of all different faiths, even if a few mental midgets don't .

[Imran Siddiqui]

Btw, you have absolutely no clue how the Bangladesh Parliament (Jatiyo Sangshad) works . The Prime Minister is the leader of the majority party or alliance, just like in the UK. Khaleda Zia is head of the Bangladesh Nationalist Party. Not appointed by the President!

[Dracon II]

Originally posted by StarLightDeath


Possibly, and probably, you have a point there. However, I don't have to tolerate people coming into this country trying to use our laws against us in an attempt to undermine our culture. I believe the security of the US lies in the preservation of our culture and I believe Christianity is the stepping stone to destroying it. Anyone who tries to say that Christianity isn't a part of American culture seeks to undermine it.

The whole point of SCS and the establishment clause is that one religion be prevented from using laws against other religions and to further their own faith in relation to them. If a religious minority comes to the USA and takes advantage of the religious and cultural freedom afforded to them by the American political system, how can it possibly be their fault? Might have something to do with the fact that the ideas of "liberty and equality" are also a part of your culture, perhaps? And that they were led to believe that they would be able to partake in such things by arriving to that country? Would not their expectations and hopes be shattered were they suddenly to find that you had taken control of the country and decreed that they do not deserve the same status as everyone else? Would this heighten or diminish their willingness to respect American culture? And what example would this set for Middle Eastern nations such as Iraq that have considerable Christian minorities... if you were to advise the Iraqis, in their new democracy, to afford equal status for them... would they listen to you? Or would they retort with an accurate observation of your treatment of their brothers and sisters in faith?

I saw a documentary recently on the post 9/11 attitude to Islam in the USA and I heard the ridiculous statement from a Texan radio DJ that muslims should "tolerate his intolerance". Well, it doesn't work that way, I'm afraid. Perhaps I should quote the Lord Jesus Christ, supposedly the foundation of American Culture: "Do unto others what you have them do unto you". So, ironically... one of the ideas behind SCS is more Christian than many Christians themselves are!

A conundrum!

[Dracon II]

Why aren't you over in the middle east protesting for a separation of church and state?

Obviously he's still occupied with protesting for it in the USA. No thanks to you of course.

I'm not Christian, I'm an atheist.

A self professed atheist is arguing that the United States is a Christian nation that should exclude those elements that are supposed to undermine said Christian national culture? Remind me to never pick you for my soccer team because you have a real knack for scoring own goals!

[Dracon II]

Another conundrum; to speak highly of an attempt to create a viable Liberal Democracy in a Muslim country and yet to simultaneously hold the belief that Muslims cannot successfully participate in one that was prepared earlier!

[Sava]

Originally posted by Dracon II
Another conundrum; to speak highly of an attempt to create a viable Liberal Democracy in a Muslim country and yet to simultaneously hold the belief that Muslims cannot successfully participate in one that was prepared earlier!

I think StarLightDeath just likes the idea of blowing them up... I mean, liberating them

[Sava]

oh, not to mention stacking them up in huge piles of Muslim man ass in prison... I mean, torturing... no wait... uhmmm

being nice

to




them


yeah

or something

[Sikander]

Psychologists don't prescribe medications, only M.D.s do that. Those that work to keep people's brain chemistries in order are called psychiatrists.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by StarLightDeath


Envy is a sin you know.

Having been brought up a Roman Catholic I'm more than familiar with the concept of 'sin'- a fairly antediluvian, mediaeval concept I find now, I might add.

If you believe envy is a sin, I suppose it partly explains the insulting tone of your posts towards anyone who demonstrates a greater grasp of logic or knowledge than you- such as Imran, for instance.

Your constant harping on at him about his 'faith' is rather wearisome- you'll find he isn't an Islamic zealot if you could just see past your Fred Phelps blinkers.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by StarLightDeath


Actually there are Jewish displays with Christian displays all the time.

Super- religious faith reduced to the equivalent of an auto swap meet, or d!ck measuring contest on state property.


I'm unaware that the United States has been reserved solely for the delight and enjoyment of Jews and Christians.

Perhaps you could point out to us in the Bill of Rights, the Constitution of the United States of America, any subsequent amendments, or laws passed since the Declaration of Independence where the territory of the United States has been deemed a reservation for privileged dyspeptic aggrieved Christianistas and like-minded Jews ?

Or where certain Christian franchises and Jewish franchises have been granted a governmental free pass for religious displays on government property at the expense of other religious or indeed non-religious groups ?


'Cos if you can't, all you gots is bupkiss.

There are two groups who whine all the time and that is atheists and muslims.

StarryBrainDeath


Odd- the thin sour whines we get most of are pressed out from the grapes of Right Wing Christian wrath:

In his June 3 decision, Biggers noted that course instructors used Barton's video "America's Godly Heritage," as well as other fundamentalist tapes, in class.

"[T]he only implication the court can draw from the showing of this and other religious films to a class of students supposedly studying Middle East history is that the teachers are attempting to indoctrinate the students in their religious beliefs by claiming to teach Middle East history," Biggers wrote. "This practice cannot be condoned in the context of a public school system. It is best left to the family and the church."

and:

April 25, 1997

Philadelphia -- Gov. Fob James said here today he threatened to call out the National Guard to protect a display of the Ten Commandments on an Alabama judge's wall to force President Clinton's hand.

James, speaking at the annual meeting of the Washington, D.C.-based Heritage Foundation, also suggested that justices on both the Alabama and U.S. supreme courts should be impeached if they order the Ten Commandments removed.

"It's going to take an order from the president of the United States to strip those Ten Commandments down" from the courtroom of Circuit Judge Roy S. Moore, James said, although he said "there's not going to be a physical battle."

James told members of the conservative think tank that his threat to use the guard and state troopers to keep the Ten Commandments displayed despite any court order otherwise is "symbolic." But he said it would force Clinton to get involved because the president would have to overrule James to get the display removed.

"Then the American people will see an American president strip the Ten Commandments from the courthouse in Etowah County," James said.

Gosh how Christian. How very like the advice given in the (Christian) New Testament:

Matthew 6:5-6:

"And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men....when thou prayest, enter into thy closet and when thou has shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret...."


Well, that's only the person who most Christians hold to be the Son of God saying that, so it's clearly of no importance, right ?

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Berzerker

The gov't allowing us to practice our religions, even putting up symbols on public lands, does not constitute a law respecting an establishment of religion. The notion that the Framers would have banned such displays is ridiculous.

I'm astonished- you adopt a tiresomely literalist approach to the wording of documents from the 18th Century, but you also claim to 'know' what the Framers would have or would not have done.

Doesn't that involve some degree of speculation or interpretation on your part ?

One can of course maintain one's faith (within certain boundaries- the Native American Church is denied the use of peyote as part of its rituals, although alcohol seems to get a free pass in Christian and Jewish observances) with relatively few restrictions in the United States- no one is stopping you praying, or erecting manger scenes on your own or church property, if one's church happens to be a particular branch of the Christian franchise which puts great store in graven images.

It's implied government preference or support for religion per se, or any particular subset that's the sticking point.

[Arrian]

quote:
Originally posted by StarLightDeath
Islam Religion is like a disease and it has infected people all over the world.

Fixed.

-Arrian

[Bill3000]

Ever heard of a viral meme complex, SLD?

[Berzerker]

I'm astonished- you adopt a tiresomely literalist approach to the wording of documents from the 18th Century, but you also claim to 'know' what the Framers would have or would not have done.

Well duh I also read other instructions literally. It makes it alot easier putting stuff together.

Lets see, "Congress shall make no law"... You got a better way of understanding that than taking it literally?

Doesn't that involve some degree of speculation or interpretation on your part ?

Hmm...are you suggesting we should try to reduce speculation? How do we do that if we cant take their writings literally? Now, am I speculating? Of course not, the FACT is they did not go around banning religious symbols. Why do you even think observing such a fact requires speculation?

One can of course maintain one's faith (within certain boundaries- the Native American Church is denied the use of peyote as part of its rituals, although alcohol seems to get a free pass in Christian and Jewish observances) with relatively few restrictions in the United States- no one is stopping you praying, or erecting manger scenes on your own or church property, if one's church happens to be a particular branch of the Christian franchise which puts great store in graven images.

Did the Framers ban the peyote religion? Did they ban religious symbols from the town square? Dont hang the drug war around the neck of James Madison. And yes, the gov't does not have the authority to ban the peyote religion since that is a law prohibiting the free exercise of religion.

It's implied government preference or support for religion per se, or any particular subset that's the sticking point.

Congress shall make no law... whatever implied preference requires a law that respects the establishment of religion before it violates the 1st Amendment.

Do you also believe a manger scene is coercive?