The Inflation of Education in Finland

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Aivo½so
A funny thing i just remembered was that while trying to draw in more foreign students, they are introducing tuition fees for foreign students at the University of Helsinki, and the only foreigners I know that are studying in there are doing so just because there are no tuition fees... otherwise, who on earth would want to come to study HERE of all places?

For the same money they could probably go to school in the US, Australia, or some where else sunny and warm yet still has good infastructure.

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Pekka
Vet, guess what, they introduced the Bologna model in here too, just recently for Unis as well. But I understand that one, compability with other schools in the world and especially in Europe. But it has it's bad sides too, this recent trend I don't understand at all.

The way I see it, since many schools around the globe do this, we think why should our Polytechnic students fall back and lose, since they have the same education, thus let's get the same name too. This I feel is fair, why should they suffer in the world markets because everyone else is having wild titles too.

However it's not helping anyone in the long run and makes no sense in general.

I don't know how the EU fairs but most in US go to college. That is Bachelours, that is comparable to Poly degree, in sense of level of education.

DanS, I absolutely agree with you, but if it means lowering the standards, I disagree. I think we should aim high and make it possible for everyone to attend and get their degrees and study what they want, high degrees, IF THEY MEET THE REQUIREMENTS. No dumbification process before that. I think that's the key.

Otherwise they are nothing but empty titles. It hurts everyone in the long run. Those who have those empty titles, because they can be superqualified and awesome, but they have this title that everyone knows means nothing. So no open doors for the opportunity to show skill, also the ones who have real degree, you know they get mixed up and it's all a blur.

It's just titles, good sides, nothing. Bad sides, lower quality in general, blurring the vision and confusing for everyone etc etc.

We have had Polys counted as 'higher education', which is questionable, however not too far fetched and could be. You know, why not? And quality Poly schools, they are quality schools, quality stuff all the way. So I agree, they are higher education for sures just like anyone else, the Unis etc. But they are NOT Unis. Just simply because trhey aren't, they are different set of schools, and they don't fill the definition of one. So I don't see why they need to be shopping with the new name, it's really quite obvious they try to lift the value of it by using the same name, otherwise there is no need for name change. But just changing the name and not the content, it gets us nowhere. Thus, inflation of it all.

So you get a Masters instead of a Bachelors.. what is the problem?

JM

[Footie Mad]

Cleaners can also be called something that seemingly lifts the profession up to health care status, by using the swedish term for nursing someone/something. Vårda.

So "sjukvårdare" = basically "nurser of the sick", what would be called a medic or nurse in english.

"lokalvårdare" = "nurser of a local", cleaner.

This has been upsetting some people working in health care.
But all in the name of equality!!

[Provost Harrison]

Originally posted by CerberusIV
Sounds like Finland is doing what the UK did 15-20 years ago. The result there was that more people worked in higher education (especially as they weren't capable of holding down real jobs anywhere else), standards dropped and the politicians claimed a success because more people got more imposing bits of paper to prove they were qualified.

If you haven't been to "university" in the UK it's hard to even get a job with the council emptying dustbins.

All Maggie's fault.

Well you've got to go to a proper uni to get any kind of respect, that's the thing. Getting a degree in Theatre Set Design from Barnsley Institute of Higher Education isn't going to get you too far!

[Pekka]

Miller, if you didn't see the problem points I explained, read it again, and again, and again, and again .

PH, and that is one of the most worrying things we are heading now. LIke said, it didn't used ot matter where you graduated from IN HERE. Now, you need to start making that distinction again since others are strating to scramble, and that's unnecessary at this point.

Meaning if I want my degree in x field, I need to go to Uni X or I just might as well change my field.

[Provost Harrison]

Absolutely. I had the fortune of going to a good university, and even then it was a struggle with the oversupply of graduates...

[Pekka]

Exactly. I mean that's just the reality of it, but we are not there yet, why should we drive there faster, when we eventually get there anyway, too..

And the problem is, we have only few Unis, so even now since there is no tuition fees (considerable), it's a head on competition with your peers and everyone else. These days older folks are applying again too, so it's like a full on war to get there, since the entrance exams are basically the way. So once a year, it's war time. Then if you don't make it, read the year for the next shot, and everyone else does it too, so it's not really that simple to get in, you have to do really well.

Of course most of the folks apply to Uni of Helsinki, just because most people live next to it and it's a good school too, now imagine that every Finn wanted to one single Uni? Can't have that, it's insanity. It's tough now, but then it would be insanity. And all because other schools started to blur and scramble with ghost titles? No way.. just not worth it.

There's already million different other schools, let's keep it them other schools because they have their own name and type, period. And the few Unis, let's keep them as Unis, because the law and the dictionary makes their distinctive differencies (such as research).

And it's not to say, look, this is a university, clearly better school than others, and it means I'm smarter and better person. That's not what it means, there are other equivalent schools as well, some that are better if you are in field x, then you want to be there, not in a university. So it's not some elitist hogging, however, the schools that are lower in quality, requirements and 'production' should not lift themselves up with names. They should lift themselves up with content.

[C0ckney]

Originally posted by Provost Harrison
Well you've got to go to a proper uni to get any kind of respect, that's the thing. Getting a degree in Theatre Set Design from Barnsley Institute of Higher Education isn't going to get you too far!

this is the problem though. when what need more of in this country are plumbers, electricans etc. and yet we have a target of getting 50% of people into higher education.

[Jon Miller]

maybe I don't understand how other countries work...

in the US it is ~4 years for a BA/BS

~2 years for a MA/MS

and about 5 years post BA/BS for a PhD

my understanding was that europe was mostly similiar, but because of better school pre college/university, a BA/BS level education was only 3 years or so

now was/is Finland different? where there are mini degrees and regular degrees, and the regular degrees are ~5 years?

but if you want a PhD, what do you do after a degree from university (as opposed to one from a tech college) , how many years is it?

I know that the US universities PhDs are competive in pretty much ever field (and dominant in some)

I do know in the US there is a broad range of what a BA/BS means..
for example in physics backgrounds can go from

lots of lab classes to no lab classes
lots of math to barely more then calculus
lots of quantum mechanics (and even quantum field theory) to no quantum mechanics (maybe just a few of the ideas..)
hamiltonian mechancs to just newtonian mechanics

etc

It is important to the Universities (and I would expect to employers also) to look at what classes were taken, and be a bit familiar with the school in question, to determine what the person actually know)

JM

[Impaler[WrG]]

Duuuuuu In an age when Tecnolgy and Inovation become more important then Strong Backs and Sweat its in the interests of Industry (and hence the goverments they control) to Educate the heck out of the population so skilled work will be cheap! The same market forces which lead us to import all our T-shirts from China also lead to excessive Univiersity education, shure many people wont realy hack it but they still dilute the wages of the elites who under a old ways would have a monopoly on skilled labor.

As for determining relative skills of aplicants with degrees from differnt instituties, I see potential for test based Certificate systems to grow in importance. Certificates would have some kind of rankings so they convey more information then the diploma.