Are people who believe in the Death Penalty by definition Evil?

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by notyoueither


Not safer, no.

But, is Clifford Olsen ever going to see the light of day without bars? What is the point of keeping him alive? Even from behind bars he has tried to torture the families of his victims.

The point is that he is a human being, and has inherent moral value. Killing him needlessly is wrong.

[KrazyHorse]

You are kidding yourselves if you think banning the Death Penalty is going to make a difference

So you're admitting that the death penalty as currently practiced has no real societal effects? Gee, that's what I've been saying all along.

But your arguments in this thread seem to stem from the assumption that the death penalty in and of itself is a positive thing. Care to explain why?

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by notyoueither


Not true. If there could be a doubt about guilt, then the punishment is too extreme.

With the DP a couple of people in Canada, who are free today after being exonerated from convictions sloppily or maliciously obtained, could be dead. That would not be so good.

It's no good whether or not they were guilty. Acting (as a society) beyond the necessities of self-defense is wrong.

[notyoueither]

Clifford Olsen has negative inherent value. His continued breathing is a pain to the families of his victims, and no good could ever come of it.

[Agathon]

Retribution,[..],is valid in some cases where the crime is particularly horrid and there is no possible doubt about guilt.

A simple question.

Why?

[Sava]

Originally posted by notyoueither


Not true. If there could be a doubt about guilt, then the punishment is too extreme.

With the DP a couple of people in Canada, who are free today after being exonerated from convictions sloppily or maliciously obtained, could be dead. That would not be so good.

I've already addressed these issues ad nauseum. You can reread my earlier arguments... in this thread... in past threads... etc.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Agathon


A simple question.

Why?

To put an end to it.

You are aware of Olsen torturing his victims' families, and tying up law enforcement resources by trying to sell details of the crimes after conviction, are you not?

The arguments against the DP are many and good, for the most part. Then you run into a poster child for lethal injection and it is no longer so simple.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by notyoueither


To put an end to it.

You are aware of Olsen torturing his victims' families, and tying up law enforcement resources by trying to sell details of the crimes after conviction, are you not?

The death penalty is not required to do this. Simply whack him in solitary forever and screen all his mail. That's what should be done with these guys.

Apart from Bernardo and Earle Nelson, Canada doesn't seem to have a lot of experience with these sorts of guys. More should be done. We've never had someone like that in NZ, and I think the cops just wouldn't know what to do.

The arguments against the DP are many and good, for the most part. Then you run into a poster child for lethal injection and it is no longer so simple.

It's perfectly natural to want to kill monsters like that. However, what is natural is not necessarily good (consider rape as an evolutionary strategy).

IMHO the practical arguments for the death penalty just fail when confronted by the evidence. The retributivist arguments are slightly better, but retributivism faces insuperable objections and counterexamples.

[Agathon]

FTR I don't think that people who support the DP are by definition evil. However, I think that the ultimate reasons for it involve profound mistakes about the nature of ethics... at least that's what I ended up with the last time I did serious work on it.

[notyoueither]

Well, I don't beleive I am evil either, but I do believe that some people who commit some crimes warrant it.

They warrant it when the crime is so egregious, and without a scent of doubt of their guilt, and their death would contribute to healing in the community or for the families of their victims.

Cop killers, child killers, multiple murderers.

Their lives have negative value, but their death could be positive for the people left behind.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by notyoueither
Well, I don't beleive I am evil either, but I do believe that some people who commit some crimes warrant it.

They warrant it when the crime is so egregious, and without a scent of doubt of their guilt, and their death would contribute to healing in the community or for the families of their victims.

Cop killers, child killers, multiple murderers.

Again.. why? It's a simple question and deserves an answer.

Their lives have negative value, but their death could be positive for the people left behind.

I don't quite understand what "negative value" means here, but if I get what you mean then it would be a dangerous precedent to set.

And if we are going to make punishment serve the purpose of making the victims feel better then I don't see any problem with my oral sex suggestion earlier in the thread.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Agathon


Again.. why? It's a simple question and deserves an answer.

their death would contribute to healing in the community or for the families of their victims.

[Agathon]

their death would contribute to healing in the community or for the families of their victims.

Except that it would distress me even more if my wife's murderer was executed, since I don't believe in the death penalty.

Surely, in order to make this "healing" scheme more efficient, we should allow the victims to choose the punishment that will make them feel the best.

But this would introduce an unacceptable arbitrariness into the system of punishments, and, moreover, some people would choose punishments that would be regarded by most sane people as barbaric. And what about when various interested people disagree about the nature of the punishment.

That idea, if applied consistently, is a non-starter.

[notyoueither]

When did your personal choice of punishment enter into it? You don't get a choice. A judge passes a sentence based on guidelines of the law and justice. Justice would include impact on the family of victims, but not their personal heart's desire.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by notyoueither
Clifford Olsen has negative inherent value. His continued breathing is a pain to the families of his victims, and no good could ever come of it.

You are wrong and I find your lack of respect for human life troubling.