Are people who believe in the Death Penalty by definition Evil?

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
In some cases, there may be a possibility of future parole if the appropriate officials conclude the convict is no longer a danger to society.

If your parole officers are so bad at doing their job that they will release a significant number of murderers who will kill again then you might want to take a look at abolishing parole for some crimes as an alternative to the death penalty (which, given the fantastically low number of actual executions compared to murder convictions, is certainly not doing much to drop the homicide rate by killing murderers before they can kill again)

[KrazyHorse]

I personally have no problem with executions when it can be shown that these executions will make society at large safer and there are no reasonable substitutes

For instance, in the early 19th century very few if any countries had the ability to jail significant numbers of people for a significant amount of time (or for the rest of their lives), so execution was used to protect society from those who had proven their willingness to attack its members.

As time progressed, governments came into the ability to imprison all convicted murderers for the rest of their lives. When this became possible, executing somebody became a use of excessive force. Protection could be safely achieved without the death of the murderer. Even people who are executed spend a huge portion of their lives waiting in jail to be killed. The death penalty, as practiced in the US, kills a very low proportion of convicted murderers, and does so after a very protracted waiting period. These are both indications that the death penalty is merely an outlet for frustration in a small number of "spectacular" cases, rather than a wholescale measure to protect society...

[Wezil]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse


You ought to look at how your prison system works, then. We've never had a convicted murderer who was released and proceeded to kill again. And we haven't executed anybody in 43 years.

According to the National Parole Board you are incorrect.

http://www.npb-cnlc.gc.ca/reports/pr101001_e.htm

[KrazyHorse]

As for the deterrence argument, I refer you to the psychological finding that the certainty of punishment, far more than the severity of punishment, is the major determining factor in the effectiveness of a deterrent.

The death penalty is only applied in a vanishingly small number of cases. It would be much better for deterrence's sake if you were to guarantee that all murderers be locked up for at least 35 years than if you were to allow the current piecemeal system (some murderers being let out after 6 years while a very small number are executed) to continue.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by Wezil


According to the National Parole Board you are incorrect.

IIRC none of them were convicted of 1st degree the 1st time around (which would mean that none would have been eligible for death penalty in the US). I could be wrong, but I recall having this discussion before.

[Wezil]

You didn't distinguish - "We've never had a convicted murderer who was released and proceeded to kill again."

[KrazyHorse]

Yes, that soundbite was wrong.

But even if we look at all homicide releases we see that we've had 36 deaths as a result of releasing 7652 1st/2nd/manslaughter convicts to society in one way or another (full or conditional) over a period of 24 years.

While I do see this as being cause for some concern, I don't see it as being cause to execute all 7652 of those convicts...

[KrazyHorse]

The people we released are about as dangerous, on average, as a resident of Baltimore City (homicide rate ~40 per 100 000) of which I am one

Let that sink in for a moment...

[Wezil]

I agree the numbers are low - so long as you weren't connected to one of the 36.

[KrazyHorse]

That's why we don't let relatives of the victim decide punishment...

It's too high, obviously. One is too high.

But the choice to kill 7652 people, even if they are murderers is so far the other way as to be ridiculous...

[KrazyHorse]

And make no mistake; that's what we need to be talking about if we're discussing the death penalty as making society safer...

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
The people we released are about as dangerous, on average, as a resident of Baltimore City (homicide rate ~40 per 100 000) of which I am one

Let that sink in for a moment...

: puzzled by the math in this post:

36/7652 = 40/100,000

~0.5% = .04%

Its not quite sinking in.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe


uzzled by the math in this post:

36/7652 = 40/100,000

~0.5% = .04%

Its not quite sinking in.

Divide by 12 for average time out of jail to get an annual rate.

[KrazyHorse]

Homicide rate is measured in instances per population per time

Usually in instances per 100 000 per annum

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Gotcha.

Thanks that helped.

The obvious solution therefor is application of the DP for Baltimore.