"In two and a half years Bush has succeeded in creating two new Talibans in Iraq."

[Sava]

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Arrian
Three states

The Sunni one would be doomed. It would fail and become (continue to be, rather) a breeding ground for terrorists and such.

-Arrian

but if that is what the people want..?

do you disagree with democracy?

JM

[Arrian]

Why do I hate freedom?

If they vote for that, so be it. But the Sunnis would have to be morons to do it - they have no oil, IIRC. You would have two potentially viable states (Kurds, Shiites) surrounding a landlocked, resourceless, pissed-off hotbet of terrorism. And that's not getting into Turkey's reaction to an independant Kurdistan.

-Arrian

[Jon Miller]

sometimes I do think that democracy isn't the best for some cultures...

but then I wonder if that is culturlist..

JM

[MikeH]

You only have to look at the US to see the mess countries can get in when they are allowed to vote for their leaders.

[Arrian]

I refer you to Churchill's quote regarding types of government, Jon.

-Arrian

[Jon Miller]

eh, but he was talking from the point of view of a capitalist, individualist, materialistic society... (rationalist?)

consider a society that is none of those things.. is democracy the least worst there as well?

I really have doubts about both democracy and capitalism (Well, I hvae doubts ab out capitalism anyway, but I do admit in our society capitalism works.. I just don't like it) working in some african countries at this time....

Jon Miller

[Arrian]

Yeah, I've had my doubts too, Jon... but again (and this is the point of Mr. C's quote) what is the better alternative?

-Arrian

[Az]

Three states
Free Kurdistan

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Arrian
Yeah, I've had my doubts too, Jon... but again (and this is the point of Mr. C's quote) what is the better alternative?

-Arrian

maybe one of the other ones..?

JM

[Arrian]

What about the Sunni "state" though, Az? How does that work out?

-Arrian

[Arrian]

Originally posted by Jon Miller


maybe one of the other ones..?

JM

Such as? If not democracy, we're talking about some form of dictatorship or oligarchy, yes?

That's better how?

-Arrian

[Jon Miller]

if the people aren't going to elect people that will lead them right... then perhaps a leader might do that for them?

I know you have chance.. and can have really bad ones.. but you can have good ones also

and maybe you have to go through a process away from tribalism.. through some sort of tyranny.. before you can reach democracy

such as, the people would vote for laws that women get stoned if they ever leave the house, or if their husband wishes it.. but a tyranny, that wants to get some benefit from the west, would do differently...

the history of the west is one of progression, it wasn't just a jump into democracy

in fact, the french couldn't handle democracy at first, and had to regress to tyranny for a bit..

JM

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
if the people aren't going to elect people that will lead them right... then perhaps a leader might do that for them?

I know you have chance.. and can have really bad ones.. but you can have good ones also

and maybe you have to go through a process away from tribalism.. through some sort of tyranny.. before you can reach democracy

such as, the people would vote for laws that women get stoned if they ever leave the house, or if their husband wishes it.. but a tyranny, that wants to get some benefit from the west, would do differently..

You mean, like Saddam Hussein did?

[Arrian]

Jon,

I'm with you on my general distaste for Tribalism (which, incidently, is just a micro version of nationalism...). However, which is worse:

1) Going through a period of "some sort of tyranny" to get to democracy; or
2) Going through a period of psuedo, tribalistic democracy to get to democracy.

Of course, the big ? is whether the endpoint really is what you and I would recognize as "democracy" (as in a representative republic).

There have been many, many dictatorships in this world, and hardly any were of the benevolent variety...

-Arrian