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Because scientists taking an active role in educating the public about science *will* trigger an aggressive response from the fundies.
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Am I the only one nerdy enough to have read books by Lawrence M. Krauss and James Kakalios?I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio -
DanS - so you're talking about scientists taking time out from research to do some teaching in public schools, then? Sorry, I guess I was confused as to what you were suggesting.
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Dino,
Yeah, I think maybe you are...
-Arriangrog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!
The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.Comment
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More than that, I am suggesting that scientists do what is in their power to make sure that people are taught science well in our public schools. This is a much more significant issue than whether ID is discussed in class (as stated, I think ID is a tempest in a teacup).DanS - so you're talking about scientists taking time out from research to do some teaching in public schools, then? Sorry, I guess I was confused as to what you were suggesting.I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891Comment
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That boils down to two things:More than that, I am suggesting that scientists do what is in their power to make sure that people are taught science well in our public schools.
1) Good teachers; and
2) Good curriculum.
1 being (IMO) much more important than 2.
More scientists could choose to become teachers, which might help out school districts that are low on qualified applicants for the science/math jobs. But is that going to happen spontaneously, or might we have to actually aim for it (offer more $$ for science & math teachers)?
-Arriangrog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!
The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.Comment
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They were really good books too and sought to explain the concepts simply without watering it down.Originally posted by Arrian
Dino,
Yeah, I think maybe you are...I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator RubioComment
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Well cool. Are they used by schools?
-Arriangrog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!
The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.Comment
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No, of course not. You have to recruit and develop good teachers. As far as I can tell, right now, no effort is going into this from line scientists. The likes of KH are too busy putting people down about their lack of scientific knowledge to give a good goddamn about it.But is that going to happen spontaneouslyI came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891Comment
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Sold to the consumer via Amazon and bookstores. However the discussion seems to have drifted toward a more specific means of educating the public so I'll let it drop.I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator RubioComment
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Which comes back to what... the school boards, right? And if you get creationist morons elected to your school board, you are likely to get silliness like this.
So the scientists have to win over the public (via education), but that can only happen if the public wants it...
It's gonna take time.
-Arriangrog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!
The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.Comment
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No, I don't think it does, primarily. Who is going to cultivate the sciences except the scientists?Which comes back to what... the school boards, right?
I crossedited you in that last post.I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891Comment
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No, I'm too busy doing research to give a good goddamn about it. Putting everybody else down is just a hobby.Originally posted by DanS
No, of course not. You have to recruit and develop good teachers. As far as I can tell, right now, no effort is going into this from line scientists. The likes of KH are too busy putting people down about their lack of scientific knowledge to give a good goddamn about it.
And the reason that you don't often get good science teachers in high schools is threefold:
1) The money. Paying an English teacher 30k is all well and good because even a master's degree in English is pretty much useless. Paying a biochemist, physicist or mathematician the same amount is just plain stupid.
2) High school teachers don't get to do research. Scientists didn't become scientists just so they could train more scientists. The motivation is to extend human knowledge. You don't do that teaching grade 8 biology.
3) Because they haven't gone through the weeding out process of being accepted to university, passing some intro classes etc. high school students are, on average, a lot stupider (not less knowledgable; stupider, plain and simple) than is the average upper-level undergraduate that a science professor usually has to deal with. Teaching stupid people is frustrating.It's doubly so when most of them do not give a damn, nor will they ever give a damn. Profs don't like teaching intro classes at universities for the exact same reason.
The conclusion: there is no solution. I'm willing to let the average person wallow in ignorance, because it's been proven time and time again that trying to correct this is futile.Last edited by KrazyHorse; December 21, 2005, 17:29.12-17-10 Mohamed Bouazizi NEVER FORGET
Stadtluft Macht Frei
Killing it is the new killing it
Ultima Ratio RegumComment
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Let's take a look at the average week of a professor at a research institution:
3 hours in class
4 hours preparing for class, writing notes, creating assignments&tests
4 hours administrative duties
35+ hours doing things you're genuinely interested in
salary: 70+k to start
High school teacher:
20 hours in class
20 hours preparing for class, creating assignments&tests marking assignments&tests
5 hours administrative duties (maybe more?)
60 hours sitting at home wondering why your life sucks so bad
salary 35k to start
12-17-10 Mohamed Bouazizi NEVER FORGET
Stadtluft Macht Frei
Killing it is the new killing it
Ultima Ratio RegumComment
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At a minimum, very little creativity has been devoted to trying to correct that. There is no law, natural or man-made, that says basic science instruction shall be done as you have laid it out above.I'm willing to let the average person wallow in ignorance, because it's been proven time and time again that trying to correct this is futile.I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891Comment
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Every professor I know would kill for those conditions.Originally posted by KrazyHorse
Let's take a look at the average week of a professor at a research institution:
3 hours in class
4 hours preparing for class, writing notes, creating assignments&tests
4 hours administrative duties
35+ hours doing things you're genuinely interested in
salary: 70+k to startWhy can't you be a non-conformist just like everybody else?
It's no good (from an evolutionary point of view) to have the physique of Tarzan if you have the sex drive of a philosopher. -- Michael Ruse
The Nedaverse I can accept, but not the Berzaverse. There can only be so many alternate realities. -- ElokComment
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Professors in Sweden may not be working under the same system as professors in the US. As an example, Swedish basic science education may suck slightly less than US basic science education.I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891Comment
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