God and the stone

[Urban Ranger]

Ability to use a gun and being omnipotent not only different in degree but also in kind.

Consider the difference between a finite set and an infinite set. An infinite set has some very strange properties that will never be found for finite sets.

The whole thing is "omnipotence" is incomprehensible to us humans. Thus, any entity with such an attribute is also incomprehensible.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by The diplomat
As I see it, omnipotence means having infinite power. So, God being omnipotent could create a stone that He could not lift. In essence what that means is that omnipotence includes the power to give up some power. or limit your power.

When an entity gives up enough power to be non-omnipotent, it is then non-omnipotent, not omnipotent.

[FrostyBoy]

Like I said before, our sense of "all-powerful" is (probably) distorted.

all-powerful, may not mean the power to do anything, but the power to CHOOSE to do anything.

For example, if God chooses to do XYZ, then it will happen. If he chooses not to, then it will not happen.

Power is at the mercy of choice and choice is at the mercy of God's decision.

[Urban Ranger]

The question is not whether YHWH will make a rock so heavy that not even he can't lift it or not, but whether YHWH can do such a thing or not.

[FrostyBoy]

Then the answer is simple, it is yes, God can.

but the one thing that prevents existence from collapsing is that God chooses not to.

[Straybow]

No, because "lifting" requires an opposing force (typically gravity) that pins the stone in question to a greater mass that (for all intents and purposes) can't be moved. Hence, the phrasing of the question is self-contradictory and invalid because it requires an answer that assumes an immovable "ground."

pwned

"Have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates? MORONS!"

[FrostyBoy]

no, contradictions limit us, not God.

[Straybow]

Exactly, the contradictions limit the poseur's ability to ask a coherent and non-self-contradictory question.

[FrostyBoy]

Oh, righteo, ok.


God knows.

[trev]

God has never claimed to be omnipotent. Certainly powerful, more powerful than any life we could imagine but definitely not omnipotent. God has always stated that he cannot act against his character, which includes an inability to lie,' In hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began' Titus 1:2. The Mighty God who could create the universe in an instant cannot do something as simple as lying because it is against his character.
Also Numbers 23:19 places limits on God's abilities 'God is not a man, that he should lie, Nor a son of man, that he should repent. Has He said, and will He not do? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?'
God cannot not do what he has said and promised, therefore any statement by God about what He will do places restrictions immediately on what He can do, because He must do what He said.
The teaching of unrestrained omnipotence is not a biblical teaching, and therefore arguments for or against God based on omnipotence are invalid.

[Lazerus]

Woo i managed to think up accidental omnipotence before i read wiki to find out it's in there.

One can also attempt to resolve the paradox by postulating that omnipotence does not necessarily demand that a being must be able to do all things at all times. Thus, one reasons,

The being can create a stone which it cannot at that moment lift.
However, being omnipotent, the being can always later reduce the weight of the stone to a weight where it can lift it. Therefore the being is still legitimately omnipotent.

[Lazerus]

Getting quite into reading through this stuff

Logically impossible
Some philosophers maintain that the paradox can be resolved if the definition of omnipotence includes Descartes' view that an omnipotent being can do the logically impossible:

An omnipotent being can do the logically impossible.
The omnipotent being creates a stone which it cannot lift.
The omnipotent being then lifts the stone.
Presumably, such a being could also make the sum 2 + 2 = 5 become mathematically possible, or could create a square circle. In the words of Harry Frankfurt, "If an omnipotent being can do what is logically impossible, then he can not only create situations which he cannot handle but also, since he is not bound by the limits of consistency, he can handle situations which he cannot handle."

We're all screwed if this guys right :

Maimonides was an adherent of negative theology, a discipline which holds that one can only describe God via negations. A somewhat mystical view, negative or "Apophatic" theology centers upon the concept that God's true essence cannot be spoken, and that all affirmative descriptions of God risk being blasphemous or heretical.

[Zoid]

Some philosophers maintain that the paradox can be resolved if the definition of omnipotence includes Descartes' view that an omnipotent being can do the logically impossible:

1. An omnipotent being can do the logically impossible.
2. The omnipotent being creates a stone which it cannot lift.
3. The omnipotent being then lifts the stone.

Presumably, such a being could also make the sum 2 + 2 = 5 become mathematically possible, or could create a square circle. In the words of Harry Frankfurt, "If an omnipotent being can do what is logically impossible, then he can not only create situations which he cannot handle but also, since he is not bound by the limits of consistency, he can handle situations which he cannot handle."

The modern science of quantum mechanics postulates that all material objects naturally exist in a superposition of states. Though the basic equations of quantum mechanics can be interpreted in several different ways, a common viewpoint states that when an object is "observed" or "measured", it "collapses" into a single state. Many calculations in quantum mechanics are intended to determine the probability with which an object will collapse into one state or another. This concept has led to a tongue-in-cheek solution for the omnipotence paradox, in the tradition of physicist humor exemplified by Schrödinger's cat. If an omnipotent being is in fact omnipotent, it can prevent others from observing it. Such a being could then both create a stone it cannot lift and lift the stone at the same time, and because others could not observe it doing so, there would be no way to confirm the outcome of events.

What is the sound of one hand clapping? And can God hear it?

Edit: Damn, Lazerus beat me to it...

[Lazerus]

Therefore i must be God ...

*Can feel the scales tipping*

[Lazerus]

What is the sound of one hand clapping?

*claps fingers against palm*

*becomes really good at mini golf*

heh was that an intentional second simpsons rip after reading the burritos ?