Domestic spying

[Bosh]

I think what Bush has been doing is sort of six degrees of connections style wire-taps. Casting a very very broad net...

[Stuie]

So the result of all this is an investigation into who leaked the information that the administration was doing something illegal:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4570008.stm

Nice.

[The diplomat]

Originally posted by Stuie
So the result of all this is an investigation into who leaked the information that the administration was doing something illegal:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4570008.stm

Nice.

There is every reason to have this investigation. Someone leaked national security secrets which is definitely illegal.

[Imran Siddiqui]

You'd kind of hope that the result would be investigating why this type of illegal activity was done... but no.

I would also think that leaking 'national security secrets' that the government was doing illegal things would be covered under a whistleblower act.

Then again, the same people who say we need to go after this leaker were the same people who said Felt (of Watergate "Deep Throat" fame) was a traitor and, interesting, don't think the leaking of Valerie Palme's name is that important.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
You'd kind of hope that the result would be investigating why this type of illegal activity was done... but no.

I would also think that leaking 'national security secrets' that the government was doing illegal things would be covered under a whistleblower act.

Then again, the same people who say we need to go after this leaker were the same people who said Felt (of Watergate "Deep Throat" fame) was a traitor and, interesting, don't think the leaking of Valerie Palme's name is that important.

Its yet to be definitively asserted that illegal activities/things were being done (sans a ruling from the supremes or actual eavesdropping details). Perhaps an investigation would shed light but that is not the nature of this particular investigation.

[Drogue]

Wait, so the NSA takes direct orders from the president? Surely that's hideously dangerous for an inward-facing secret service?

In the UK, MI5, the inward-facing secret service, only takes orders from the head of the service, in order to be impartial in politics and internal matters. Only MI6, the foreign intelligence agency, takes orders from the Prime Minister. Otherwise the internal secret service is open to abuse, as the articles seem to be suggesting.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by Drogue
Wait, so the NSA takes direct orders from the president? Surely that's hideously dangerous for an inward-facing secret service?

In the UK, MI5, the inward-facing secret service, only takes orders from the head of the service, in order to be impartial in politics and internal matters. Only MI6, the foreign intelligence agency, takes orders from the Prime Minister. Otherwise the internal secret service is open to abuse, as the articles seem to be suggesting.

Point being NSA is supposed to be outward facing for foreign intel purposes. The presumed rationale for these wire taps was that this was at least on one end of the conversations communniques from overseas. That may not however be the case and should be part of an investigation IMO.

From NSA site

The National Security Agency/Central Security Service is America’s cryptologic organization. It coordinates, directs, and performs highly specialized activities to protect U.S. government information systems and produce foreign signals intelligence information. A high technology organization, NSA is on the frontiers of communications and data processing. It is also one of the most important centers of foreign language analysis and research within the government.

[DRoseDARs]

It's not the criminal acts that bother conservatives, it's the exposure to sunlight. Cockroaches don't like it when they have to scurry...

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

If nothing was illegal then there is no issue 'cept in the addled minds of the partisans.

Now don't get me wrong I oppose governmental intrusion in all forms but technically speaking its more about political football then anything else if nothing is truly illegal.

[Alexander's Horse]

Originally posted by Bosh
I think what Bush has been doing is sort of six degrees of connections style wire-taps. Casting a very very broad net...

One does not find the needle in the haystack by pilling more and more hay on the stack

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
If nothing was illegal then there is no issue 'cept in the addled minds of the partisans.

Now don't get me wrong I oppose governmental intrusion in all forms but technically speaking its more about political football then anything else if nothing is truly illegal.

:shrug: It seems to me that this action is highly illegal. It is violative of the 4th Amendment protections against unreasonable search and seizures. I don't think, from all we've heard so far, that it only concerned foriegn wiretaps. I think there was plenty of domestic wiretapping going on without obtaining a warrent.

And I don't the argument that we are in 'wartime' so the President is allowed to do this washes as well. The wars (or at least the Congressional authorization) have been finished in Afghanistan and Iraq - the regimes have fallen; all we are doing now is clean up work. I'd argue that that shouldn't be considered 'wartime' in the context of allowing the President to suspend civil liberties.

[Ramo]

Bill Safire apparantly was wire-tapped for several months because he "leaked" (at Bush's request) something to a reporter (who was being illegally wire-tapped as well) that Bush told him about a "welfare reform" speech. Of course, that was the FBI and not the NSA.

[Alexander's Horse]

imagine Bush wiretapped, "hello? can I get a pizza?"

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui


:shrug: It seems to me that this action is highly illegal. It is violative of the 4th Amendment protections against unreasonable search and seizures.

Apparently not when considering the precedent set by the appelate court decisions. Similarly the FISA court review of sealed case 02-001 held the president had the inherent authority to authorize warrantless electronic survellance for purposes of foreign intelligence gathering (even if Media Matters got the gist of the case as descriptive of whether the FISA court orders served as a proxy for a warrant correct, they (Media Matters) dropped the ball in understanding the further discussions the court held in that decision regarding the constitutionality of the executive to order warrantless electronic surveliance for that prescribed reason, namely foreign intelligence gathering.)

Until otherwise ruled by the Supremes the appelates have generally said unauthorized wire tapping for foreign intel is within the purview of the executive and hence not illegal.

I don't think, from all we've heard so far, that it only concerned foriegn wiretaps. I think there was plenty of domestic wiretapping going on without obtaining a warrent.

I also am skeptical but that would require further investigation to prove hearsay claims. But for the purpose of clarification it is generally understood that as long as one end of the communique is foreign that constitutes foreign intelligence gathering. The question at hand is whether any such information could then be used in legal proceedings against a US person(s). I think there has been precendent before that would disallow such evidence but could be mistaken.

And I don't the argument that we are in 'wartime' so the President is allowed to do this washes as well. The wars (or at least the Congressional authorization) have been finished in Afghanistan and Iraq - the regimes have fallen; all we are doing now is clean up work. I'd argue that that shouldn't be considered 'wartime' in the context of allowing the President to suspend civil liberties.

I see you are in the camp of Bush now when he stood on the carrier and said "Mission Accomplished!!".

[Imran Siddiqui]

But for the purpose of clarification it is generally understood that as long as one end of the communique is foreign that constitutes foreign intelligence gathering. The question at hand is whether any such information could then be used in legal proceedings against a US person(s). I think there has been precendent before that would disallow such evidence but could be mistaken.

If foriegn to domestic discussions are wiretapped, the domestic side of the conversation has to be expunged from the record, unless there was a warrant.

And it seems to me that there were some domestic to domestic wiretapping going on as well.