If you went back in time to Martin Luther and said...

[Datajack Franit]

DAHRR SHE BLOWS!

[Zkribbler]

Originally posted by Gangerolf
good old martin did the right thing. the church needed to change.

It wasn't his fault people did stupid **** later on

Agreed.

Pope Leo [of the Medici clan] had bought his office and was selling off "indulgences" like they were fast food. If Luther hadn't started a reform movement, how far into that moral abyss would the Catholic Church have continued to sink?? In the end, the whole rotten mess might have collapsed altogether.

[OzzyKP]

If anything, go back a few years before Luther and speak to the Pope and tell him everything in the OP. Getting a non-corrupt, unified Catholic church would be far better than just a unified Catholic church.

[germanos]

Originally posted by JohnT
I for one am thrilled with what Luther accomplished, but if there is a poster child for the Law of Unintended Consequences, he is front and center on it! I can't think of an equally historically significant personage whose dream of what they wanted, and what they actually got, diverged as dramatically as Luthers.

What about Christ who cleaned out the Temple?

[Barnabas]

Dont forget the Turks, had the turk menace not been so great Spain, Austria, and the Italian states would have been able to focus solely on the protestants, I think that without the turks most "continental" northern europe would still be catholic.

[germanos]

Originally posted by Brachy-Pride
Dont forget the Turks, had the turk menace not been so great Spain, Austria, and the Italian states would have been able to focus solely on the protestants, I think that without the turks most "continental" northern europe would still be catholic.

The fall of the turks and the rise of protestantism follow eachother. They are not contemporary. I don't think your theory stands.

[Barnabas]

no, Luther Died in 1546 with Protestantism thriving, and the Catholics defeated the Turks in Lepanto 25 years after his death, Catholics had to fight a war with 2 fronts, againat the turks and against the protestants

[germanos]

Well,

they were kicked out of spain in 149?, well before Luther even nailed his stuff to the door.

AFAIK the turks were on the defensive on the balkans as well.


If anything, Luther and protestantism were a (by)product of the renewed strength of christendom (vs. Islam if you really want it), and closely related to the renaissance that put western Europe in the center of world politics up to this day.


I would strongly advice anybody NOT to follow JohnT's suggestion

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by germanos
Well,

they were kicked out of spain in 149?,

The reconquista was complete the same year that Columbus sailed the ocean blue. 1492.

[OzzyKP]

And they weren't Turks.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Zkribbler
Agreed.

Pope Leo [of the Medici clan] had bought his office and was selling off "indulgences" like they were fast food. If Luther hadn't started a reform movement, how far into that moral abyss would the Catholic Church have continued to sink?? In the end, the whole rotten mess might have collapsed altogether.

how can you not find this guy awesome?

The Pirate Pope

John XXIII 1410- 1415

Technically speaking, Baldassare Cossa was an Anti-pope- this explains why he's one of two Popes to bear the name John XXIII. Unlike many Popes he wasn't born into a particularly enriched family, but he certainly displayed an impressive entrepreneurial streak which left him very seriously rich indeed. It wasn't the sort of career path one might associate with the Papacy, however. He was a pirate.
Seeking a change of career, he started working as Papal treasurer to Boniface IX and Alexander V and became a lot richer thanks to his staggering propensity for corruption. Naturally he was soon made a Cardinal. Embezzlement alone wasn't enough to keep him entertained so he happily continued to build a reputation as one of the world's greatest libertines. His home was stuffed to the rafters with two hundred concubines and prostitutes. When he wasn't knobbing them, he was killing people- it's recorded that he executed so many people that the poulation of Bologna dwindled significantly during his tenure.
Despite his unorthodox lifestyle, his accession to the Papacy was almost boringly traditional. He poisoned the reigning Pope then surrounded the Papal conclave with his troops until he'd terrified the Cardinals into electing him (yawn). One intriguing technical footnote was that Cossa had to be ordained as a priest the day before he was consecrated as Pope- it was not necessary to have taken holy orders to be a Cardinal. That was a mere trifle compared to another fact about the new John XXIII, however. He was an atheist.
John XXIII was eventually forced from power in the Council of Constance, which unified the Papacy (there were actually three Popes simultaneously up until that point). In his abdication he confessed to murder, adultery, incest, heresy, atheism, simony and sodomy. None of these were deemed totally incompatible with a career in religion so after a brief imprisonment he was made Dean of the Sacred College- a position he held until his death in 1419.

[Barnabas]

The reconquista was ended in 1492, but only the jews were expulsed in 1492, the moors who were not the same as the turks (I dont understand why he mentioned them) were expulsed in the 17 century, more than a century later.

And no, the turks were not on the defensive in the balkans, they were still expanding, and protestants had no role in the defense of christendom from the turks, Austria, Spain, the italians states, Poland in 1683, were all catholic countries.

[Dauphin]

True, it was the kingdom of Granada (?).

The Turks were laying seige to Vienna in 1530 or so, which is when the high water mark was reached. Even 150 years later the Turks were still near Vienna, IIRC.

[germanos]

Originally posted by Brachy-Pride
The reconquista was ended in 1492, but only the jews were expulsed in 1492, the moors who were not the same as the turks (I dont understand why he mentioned them) were expulsed in the 17 century, more than a century later.

Well, it was you who mentioned turks and spain in the same sentence.

I assumed you meant 'turks'=muslims.

The renaissance and Protestantism is what did the Ottomans/muslims in, and the muslims are still hopelessly fighting against it.

[The Mad Monk]

At the time of Luther, "Christiandom" deserved destruction.

He became the messenger of God's judgement on a wayward and unrepentant church.