Israeli Politics Thread

[Az]

VAT, b*tch.

[Eli]

Originally posted by Az

Actually he was referring to the employers and the minimum wage, I suppose, but carry on your rant.

In that case his message makes more sense, although(and correct me if i'm wrong here), most of the large-profits companies who can afford raising the minimum wage are not actually hiring that many minimum wage people.

Boohoo. We're all very successful. Get the medal on the way out, Eli. What's your point?

What's my point? Do you reply on a per-post basis forgetting everything that was said before?

The average high income guy is succesful not because of luck, but because of his efforts. Maybe millionaires who got rich thanks to one fluke IPO think it's all about luck.

Luck is far from being just coincidence in life, but Luck is by far your starting point in Life. if you fail to see how you growing up in a relatively good nurturing family isn't lucky, that's your problem.

You overestimate the effect of the family. With state run cheap schools, community centers, libraries and universities, no one is prevented from improving his condition.

A)Yo Momma
B)Not every thing that hurts someone is punishing them.

I agree that punishment is not the correct word to use here but the point still stands. If you take someone's money against his will, dont bother trying to justify it.

And that air ain't yours to breathe. Remember - property rights are a tool, not a goal.

The air was already here by the time we got here, it was not created by anyone and belongs to no one. The fruits of my work are there thanks to me and they belong to me.

I'll give up property rights when we dont have scarcity. But as long as scarcity is here taking away property rights amounts to taking away freedom, and freedom is a goal.

Artful dodger you are - aren't we discussing economical policies that the Israeli government should make for the sake of it's people? If you want to get into an ethical discussion, then no, there is no difference, usually.

What does it matter what we are discussing? Do you believe one thing in this thread and another thing in a different thread?

[Az]

In that case his message makes more sense, although(and correct me if i'm wrong here), most of the large-profits companies who can afford raising the minimum wage are not actually hiring that many minimum wage people.

Actually, the biggest private employer in the country, the "Shmira" company, which is owned by foreign citizens,btw, pays the minimum wage. So do most of the other modern slave drivers - the contractor companies. Actually, it is the small employers who rarely pay minimum wage.

What's my point? Do you reply on a per-post basis forgetting everything that was said before?

The average high income guy is succesful not because of luck, but because of his efforts. Maybe millionaires who got rich thanks to one fluke IPO think it's all about luck.


You overestimate the effect of the family. With state run cheap schools, community centers, libraries and universities, no one is prevented from improving his condition.

Prevented? no.
But I guess it is a coincidence that most of the 'successful' people are the ones who come from stable, nurturing families and/or rich backgrounds? You're being purposefully blind now.

I agree that punishment is not the correct word to use here but the point still stands. If you take someone's money against his will, dont bother trying to justify it.

Why shouldn't I bother trying to justify it, if I think it's the right thing to do? Do you think taxes are wrong? Yes, or no? btw, I forewarn necessary evil is a bull**** answer, because every action has both good and bad consequences and is judged after you sum them. So it can be either good, or bad.

I'll give up property rights when we dont have scarcity. But as long as scarcity is here taking away property rights amounts to taking away freedom, and freedom is a goal.

You can't give up something that doesn't exist. Property rights, I remind you again, are a social construct - which is connected to freedom, but freedom is only a secondary goal.

What does it matter what we are discussing? Do you believe one thing in this thread and another thing in a different thread?

It's not an opposite thing, and isn't contradictory. It was an argument I made for you, basically.

It's a sidetracking of the discussion - I've already explained why this would be ethical from a utilitarian pov. The "help local manufacturing" is just an icing on the cake for those who do value this.

[Eli]

Originally posted by Az
Actually, the biggest private employer in the country, the "Shmira" company, which is owned by foreign citizens,btw, pays the minimum wage. So do most of the other modern slave drivers - the contractor companies. Actually, it is the small employers who rarely pay minimum wage.

But what are their profit margins? Being a big employer is not enough, you need to be able to afford the minimum wage increase.

That's my point. The companies who make lots of money dont hire many minimum-wage workers anyway, and the companies who do hire mainly minimum-wage are those who wont be able to afford the wage rise.

But my facts could be wrong. We need data to resolve this point. What are the profit margins for the large retail chains, the shmira companies, etc? How much of their expenses go to salaries?

Prevented? no.
But I guess it is a coincidence that most of the 'successful' people are the ones who come from stable, nurturing families and/or rich backgrounds? You're being purposefully blind now.

I agree that there is a significant benefit in being born to a "good" family, but it's not that big of a factor.

A 3 year degree will cost you(all expenses included, and it's a high estimate) aproximately 60-70kNIS, that's 20-23 months of a minimum wage job and if you count the money you get when you finish the army it's down to 15-18 months.
And it gets even better if you factor in working in the summers between semesters, possible scolarships, student loans or staying an extra year or two in the army for better pay and less expenses.

In short, I agree that relatively it is significantly easier to succeed if you're born to a good family, but the absolute difference is not so big and the hindrance on the less "fortunate born" is pretty small.

Why shouldn't I bother trying to justify it, if I think it's the right thing to do? Do you think taxes are wrong? Yes, or no? btw, I forewarn necessary evil is a bull**** answer, because every action has both good and bad consequences and is judged after you sum them. So it can be either good, or bad.

They are good up to a certain point, after which they are bad.

You can't give up something that doesn't exist. Property rights, I remind you again, are a social construct - which is connected to freedom, but freedom is only a secondary goal.

It's a primary goal to me.

And to clarify, when I said "I'll give up property rights" I meant "I'll agree that property rights are unneccessary to a society".

It's a sidetracking of the discussion - I've already explained why this would be ethical from a utilitarian pov. The "help local manufacturing" is just an icing on the cake for those who do value this.

I agree that it's an advantage to our narrowly looking local voters. I just didnt understand what you find so good in it.

[Az]

But what are their profit margins? Being a big employer is not enough, you need to be able to afford the minimum wage increase.

That's my point. The companies who make lots of money dont hire many minimum-wage workers anyway, and the companies who do hire mainly minimum-wage are those who wont be able to afford the wage rise.

But my facts could be wrong. We need data to resolve this point. What are the profit margins for the large retail chains, the shmira companies, etc? How much of their expenses go to salaries?

the "damage" will be absorbed throughout the market. They'll rise their prices to pay them better.

I agree that there is a significant benefit in being born to a "good" family, but it's not that big of a factor.

A 3 year degree will cost you(all expenses included, and it's a high estimate) aproximately 60-70kNIS, that's 20-23 months of a minimum wage job and if you count the money you get when you finish the army it's down to 15-18 months.
And it gets even better if you factor in working in the summers between semesters, possible scolarships, student loans or staying an extra year or two in the army for better pay and less expenses.

In short, I agree that relatively it is significantly easier to succeed if you're born to a good family, but the absolute difference is not so big and the hindrance on the less "fortunate born" is pretty small.

You also have to be eligible to be accepted into university, you know - and to have great grades, you have to have the mentality to learn and/or assistance from your parents. Both of those depend on the family you were born in. Thus, this is strong a factor of sheer luck, a coincidence. The fact is that even your personality is the result of sheer luck doesn't mean that we shouldn't reward work, though - it just means that we should try to make our society a real equal opportunity society, and we shouldn't forget that even if you are "better" than someone - it's not that you're inherently better - it's a multitude of opportunities you've had since the day you were born. Including personality enhancing experiences - and thus it could've been you in the same place - a different you, yes, but still you.

They are good up to a certain point, after which they are bad.

So you agree that taxes can be good? Now, why a 40% tax is good, and a 50% tax is bad? a much higher factor of whether taxes are good or not is what's done with those taxes.

It's a primary goal to me.

And to clarify, when I said "I'll give up property rights" I meant "I'll agree that property rights are unneccessary to a society".

As Barry Saharoff sings:
כולם רוצים להיות חופשיים
אבל ממה,אלהים, ממה?!


freedom is just another way and opportunity for happiness ( utilitarianism ). therefore, sometimes it's worthwhile to trade your freedom for something else. We do it all the time.

[Eli]

Originally posted by Az
the "damage" will be absorbed throughout the market. They'll rise their prices to pay them better.

Wonderful. So in the best case most of the raise will be spent on paying more on the same products and will cause non-minimum-wage earners to buy less, and in the worst case foreign products will out-compete our expensive ones and all those happy workers will go unemployed.

You also have to be eligible to be accepted into university, you know - and to have great grades, you have to have the mentality to learn and/or assistance from your parents. Both of those depend on the family you were born in. Thus, this is strong a factor of sheer luck, a coincidence. The fact is that even your personality is the result of sheer luck doesn't mean that we shouldn't reward work, though - it just means that we should try to make our society a real equal opportunity society, and we shouldn't forget that even if you are "better" than someone - it's not that you're inherently better - it's a multitude of opportunities you've had since the day you were born. Including personality enhancing experiences - and thus it could've been you in the same place - a different you, yes, but still you.

I think that if you go around asking 8 years old kids whether they think more studying causes better living, most of them would answer affirmatively. The choice is there and as I said in an earlier post, the state provides excellent and cheap means to improve your condition.

So you agree that taxes can be good? Now, why a 40% tax is good, and a 50% tax is bad? a much higher factor of whether taxes are good or not is what's done with those taxes.

Of course. The "certain point" refers to the use of taxes, not to the percentage. Take for example a service which is used by all citizens equally, military protection. If a situation requires taking 50% taxes to defend a state from aggression, then by all means take those 50%.

As Barry Saharoff sings:
כולם רוצים להיות חופשיים
אבל ממה,אלהים, ממה?!


freedom is just another way and opportunity for happiness ( utilitarianism ). therefore, sometimes it's worthwhile to trade your freedom for something else. We do it all the time.

What do I trade 50% of my income for when I give them as taxes?

[muxec]

A 3 year degree will cost you(all expenses included, and it's a high estimate) aproximately 60-70kNIS, that's 20-23 months of a minimum wage job and if you count the money you get when you finish the army it's down to 15-18 months.

It's twice as right if your parents' own 1MNIS worth house.
Also

In a population where 40% of the people didnt even get a bagrut

You say all those who want can have bugroot... But you forgot that mentality and lust for knowledge also depend on family.

Business and education is luck. Do you think that Bill The Great was the only early consumer OS developer and marketer?

As I understand the question is "What would different parties do if their government mystiriously gets a lot of needless money?". And what is the answer?