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Democrats starting to ignore corporate lobbyists

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  • #31
    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Democrats starting to ignore corporate lobbyists

    Originally posted by MrFun



    So you're saying that money contributions have nothing to do with political campaigns?
    Not even half-assed spin on what I said. Maybe you need glasses. MoveOn raised a lot of money in '04. Tell me how effective it was in defeating Bush?

    The Repubs have a far more effective propaganda machine, a more disciplined party base, more successful get out the vote efforts, and better strategy wonks.

    They've been able to paint the Dems as facile, whiny, *** and arab lovers who want to slaughter innocent babies at the temple of Baphomet while persecuting followers of the one true faith, and get millions of the two-digit IQ red state crowd to buy in.

    All the millions you can raise ain't going to change that, unless you have a different message you can sell, and an effective attack/spin machine that can take back the rhetorical offensive with an audience appeal broader than the left half of your own party.
    When all else fails, blame brown people. | Hire a teen, while they still know it all. | Trump-Palin 2016. "You're fired." "I quit."

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    • #32
      Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Democrats starting to ignore corporate lobbyists

      Originally posted by Boris Godunov


      Winning those majorities is indeed based on how the Dems operate.
      It's the electorate, dear. If you haven't got a message you can sell, the rest of it doesn't matter. And the way the Dems operate has been abysmal for decades. The only selling point the Dems have which give them a chance in '06 and '08 is "We're less worse than Bush/"

      Right, because the Dem Chair has nothing to do with getting such results...
      Pretty much.

      Dean is building a 50-state party, and that's part and parcel of winning back the majority. He understands fully that politics is local, and that's where Dems need to win first and foremost to start taking things back. You can't have a sustained national majority while local offices are dominated by Republicans--this is something the GOP learned many years ago.

      Since there hasn't been a congressional election yet under his watch, and you seem to want to measure his progress by such an election, I don't see how you can claim he hasn't done anything as of yet.

      I'd say that this year's election successes, coupled with his record fundraising without relying on huge corporate donors is at least an indication that he's being successful in his efforts.
      The Dems were a 50 state party. They have always been a 50 state party (except when there were 48 or less states. ) The difference, and there's no sign Dean is doing anything to change this, is that the Dems managed to marginalize themselves on issue after issue and they failed to develop and retain the propaganda talent to sell whatever passed for their message.

      Right now, Dean has a whole bunch of fan-boys who will think that Dean and Co., will be driving the improved results in the next couple of elections, rather than the current failings of the Republican right.

      Then the party mantra will go something like: "See - the country really is full of liberal, progressive people just like us - we don't need to change a thing"
      When all else fails, blame brown people. | Hire a teen, while they still know it all. | Trump-Palin 2016. "You're fired." "I quit."

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      • #33
        MtG: You're saying that the Dems aren't whiny and facile?
        I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
        For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio

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        • #34
          Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Democrats starting to ignore corporate lobbyists

          Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat


          It's the electorate, dear. If you haven't got a message you can sell, the rest of it doesn't matter. And the way the Dems operate has been abysmal for decades. The only selling point the Dems have which give them a chance in '06 and '08 is "We're less worse than Bush"
          Being a Democrat the past few years has been depressing for just this reason. However, the current Congressional leadership seems to have a clue finally, and in 2006 they'll be rolling out a much more attractive agenda than simply "Bush sucks." High points of the agenda will include energy independence in 10 years, making college more affordable, and yes, universal healthcare. This coupled with the 1994ish message of restoring integrity to Washington could very well leave Democrats with significant gains.
          "Remember, there's good stuff in American culture, too. It's just that by "good stuff" we mean "attacking the French," and Germany's been doing that for ages now, so, well, where does that leave us?" - Elok

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          • #35
            Congressional leadership seems to have a clue finally
            OK, let's try a test. What's their message on military matters?
            I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

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            • #36
              Originally posted by DinoDoc
              MtG: You're saying that the Dems aren't whiny and facile?
              Not all of us.
              When all else fails, blame brown people. | Hire a teen, while they still know it all. | Trump-Palin 2016. "You're fired." "I quit."

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              • #37
                Originally posted by DanS


                OK, let's try a test. What's their message on military matters?
                That the Iraq war was a mistake. That our troops cannot stay there indefinitely, and we must start working on a timetable for withdrawal or at least have some solid criteria that would allow us to withdraw other than Bush's declaration of victory. Which, incidentally, has already happened twice.
                "Remember, there's good stuff in American culture, too. It's just that by "good stuff" we mean "attacking the French," and Germany's been doing that for ages now, so, well, where does that leave us?" - Elok

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by DanS


                  OK, let's try a test. What's their message on military matters?
                  That's not really fair, Dan.

                  Bush has a rotating banner of slogans:

                  "Until we complete the mission"
                  "We'll stay as long as it takes, and not a day longer"

                  and now "As Iraqis stand up, we will stand down" - sure to get lots of Iraqis to stand up, but not in the way we'd like, as Bushy just insulted their manhood.

                  Bush has never moved off of slogans, to such things as defining what constitutes "completing the mission"

                  The Republican party's message on military matters is just to all nod up and down like so many bobble-head dolls every time Bush spouts the next slogan in the rotation, and to accuse anyone of suggesting that the Emperor's ass is showing of "surrendering to the terrorists."

                  That ain't gonna play for another 11 months and change, and the Dems have plenty of time to come up with an alternative message or messages. It won't take much to outperform the Repubs tired old mantra.
                  When all else fails, blame brown people. | Hire a teen, while they still know it all. | Trump-Palin 2016. "You're fired." "I quit."

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                  • #39
                    .
                    Last edited by Ted Striker; August 3, 2020, 22:21.
                    We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution. - Abraham Lincoln

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                    • #40
                      That the Iraq war was a mistake. That our troops cannot stay there indefinitely, and we must start working on a timetable for withdrawal or at least have some solid criteria that would allow us to withdraw other than Bush's declaration of victory. Which, incidentally, has already happened twice.
                      In other words, the Democratic Party only has a policy as it relates to GOP policy. That's not a majority party strategy. You might win one election, but will give it all up in the next.

                      OK, let's try another, this time something that's supposed to be in the Democratic Party wheelhouse. What is the Democratic Party policy on health care?
                      I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

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                      • #41
                        DanS
                        "I have been reading up on the universe and have come to the conclusion that the universe is a good thing." -- Dissident
                        "I never had the need to have a boner." -- Dissident
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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by DanS


                          In other words, the Democratic Party only has a policy as it relates to GOP policy. That's not a majority party strategy. You might win one election, but will give it all up in the next.

                          OK, let's try another, this time something that's supposed to be in the Democratic Party wheelhouse. What is the Democratic Party policy on health care?
                          What the GOP's policy on free trade, supreme court picks, fiscal responsibility, Social Security, and the environment? To ask that everybody in the party agree with the party leadership is stupid, the GOP might put out their message better they fracture when it actually comes to doing what they say.
                          Kids, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is, never try. -Homer

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by DanS


                            In other words, the Democratic Party only has a policy as it relates to GOP policy. That's not a majority party strategy. You might win one election, but will give it all up in the next.
                            Not so much. The Republicans want to "stay the course" until "victory." The Democrats want a timetable and benchmarks for withdrawal. That is not "a policy as it relates to GOP policy." It is a policy on its own run. And they really have no place being more specific. It is not the job of Congress to create operations; that is done through the Defense Department. (also, there is disagreement within the party over whether we should leave immediately, or over a period of time.)

                            OK, let's try another, this time something that's supposed to be in the Democratic Party wheelhouse. What is the Democratic Party policy on health care?
                            This really isn't a game that Republicans are going to win. You want the Democrats plan on healthcare? Well, I can't give specifics, because we haven't released our agenda yet. However, the agenda is supposed to include universal healthcare. And if you think that that is only a policy as it relates to GOP policy, or is unpopular, think again.
                            "Remember, there's good stuff in American culture, too. It's just that by "good stuff" we mean "attacking the French," and Germany's been doing that for ages now, so, well, where does that leave us?" - Elok

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                            • #44
                              However, the agenda is supposed to include universal healthcare. And if you think that that is only a policy as it relates to GOP policy, or is unpopular, think again.
                              If it's so popular, why hasn't the policy been rolled out?
                              I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

                              Comment

                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Admiral
                                Not so much. The Republicans want to "stay the course" until "victory." The Democrats want a timetable and benchmarks for withdrawal. That is not "a policy as it relates to GOP policy." It is a policy on its own run. And they really have no place being more specific. It is not the job of Congress to create operations; that is done through the Defense Department. (also, there is disagreement within the party over whether we should leave immediately, or over a period of time.)
                                OK, the democrats succeed in getting the troops out. Then what?
                                I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

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