Just look at this

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by duke o' york
Ted for President!

[Arrian]

Originally posted by Montesquieu
You asked for it...

Oh, I quite like him. Let's keep him.

-Arrian

[Asher]

Originally posted by BlackCat
I think too that he is, but his capability to excuse MS is just staggering. He even claims that VS is the only professional tool that exists for making programs, wich is a really funny statement

It is, mostly because it came from you.

Visual Studio is the gold standard of complex professional development. Everyone knows that except for the geeks with their heads up Torvalds' or Joys' asses.

vi/emacs plus gcc/gdb are simply unsuitable for large and/or complex development projects.

If you weren't developing toy library applications for Danish libraries, you might appreciate that.

[Asher]

Originally posted by BlackCat
Well, they can be quite funny when they start flaming each other, but their lack of "choosing the right tool for a job" capability is a little of a bore.

I pride myself in knowing when to choose the right tool for the right job. Which is precisely why I don't advocate Windows use for servers, why I don't advocate Internet Explorer's use, and why I don't advocate using vi for anything aside from hobbyist hacking.

(I don't advocate Linux use for servers either)

[Asher]

To be honest, I'm dying to hear why you think vi is the "right tool for a job" involving complex software development. Seeing as it is completely lacking in most software engineering features and aids, I'm sure it'll be quite an interesting argument.

Are you sure it doesn't have more to do with you being old and familiar with vi more than Visual Studio than the merits of the programs?

Note: I am not talking about just the visual interface designer, but the IDE itself (including the compiler and debugger).

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by Asher

It is, mostly because it came from you.

I cant really remember that I have stated that VS is that - aren't you a bit confused ?

Visual Studio is the gold standard of complex professional development. Everyone knows that except for the geeks with their heads up Torvalds' or Joys' asses.

vi/emacs plus gcc/gdb are simply unsuitable for large and/or complex development projects.

Yep, you are quite right - before the invention of VS noone ever made complex professional systems - it was nothing but toys

If you weren't developing toy library applications for Danish libraries, you might appreciate that.

I really like this statement

Please explain to me why all major players in the library business use anything else than MS. That short statement of yours clearly displays that you doesn't have the faintest idea of the subject . Oh, I gladly admit that there are MS based systems for small libraries, but try ask your university library what system they use - if they say it's MS based I'll recommed that you asap move to another uni .

Originally posted by Asher
To be honest, I'm dying to hear why you think vi is the "right tool for a job" involving complex software development. Seeing as it is completely lacking in most software engineering features and aids, I'm sure it'll be quite an interesting argument.

Are you sure it doesn't have more to do with you being old and familiar with vi more than Visual Studio than the merits of the programs?

Note: I am not talking about just the visual interface designer, but the IDE itself (including the compiler and debugger).

I gladly admit that I'm not that young and probably have used more OS'es than you ever have heard about. Actually I wrote my first program on punch cards to some IBM mainframe, and even VS would be an improvement to that

A stated earlier, professional programming/system development didn't start with the invention of VS - that was done without problems with a mutiple of editors and sw management systems. There are some nifty things in VS that makes life easier, but there are also several things that makes it a pain in the ass to use if you are accustomed to efficient editors. Oh, this is not a guess - I have used VS and cursed at it several times because of it's inept functionality.

Please make up your mind - either I'm an old geezer or an Torvald geek - can't be both

About the IDE - well, I think that Sun Solaris Workshop is lightyears ahead of VS - especially the debugger

[Asher]

I think it's clear what we have here, it's an old man who doesn't understand the new functionality.

It's not that big, complex programs didn't exist before IDEs like Visual Studio or even Eclipse, it's that it was a lot more work to implement them. If you actually know how to use Visual Studio and Eclipse, your productivity skyrockets compared to vi/gcc/gdb.

And your last comment about Sun Solaris Workshop must be a joke. For the first 3 years of my degree we used Sun machines and Sun IDEs at school and I don't know of anyone who liked them. This year we switched to Visual Studio (Windows PCs) and Eclipse (Linux PCs), and the difference is night and day.

You're one of the oldschool geeks afraid of change, and that's not really uncommon. I guess all of the PS2/PS3 devs who spent time hacking Visual Studio to work with Sony's compilers and debuggers were wasting all their time when they could've just been using vi the whole time...

[Asher]

Please explain to me why all major players in the library business use anything else than MS.

All of the library terminals I've ever seen in recent years run Windows, public libraries, high school libraries, work libraries (IBM), and university libraries.

The servers usually run some form of *NIX, because the backends are pretty old. Both my school and my work had AIX servers.

Though I'm not sure what this has to do with anything, as I've said before many of the the compiler and AIX developers used Visual Studio and Eclipse as their IDEs, they used scripts to hook into xlc compiler and idebug debuggers for Linux/AIX/Mac.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Ted Striker
Just for that I'm posting the evilness that is Commie sympathizer Miss Venezuala! Who does she and her uberlord Chavez think they are not letting us tell them what to do!

Don't tell me you wouldn't let her tell you exactly what to do?

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by Asher

All of the library terminals I've ever seen in recent years run Windows, public libraries, high school libraries, work libraries (IBM), and university libraries.

The servers usually run some form of *NIX, because the backends are pretty old. Both my school and my work had AIX servers.

Though I'm not sure what this has to do with anything, as I've said before many of the the compiler and AIX developers used Visual Studio and Eclipse as their IDEs, they used scripts to hook into xlc compiler and idebug debuggers for Linux/AIX/Mac.

DOH! The terminals are running MS wow !!! Clear the front pages - call CNN - new evidence are disclosed !!! All explained by some unknown canadian !!! Of course the user interface runs on some dumb terminal wether it's some non OS terminal or a pc - you keep on displaying your lack of knowledge - modern libsystems of course use a mix of web/thin/thick clients depending of functionality. What you DON'T see is systems where the backend is MS based - there is no way that MS systems can handle such. Every time you claims otherwise you just displays how little you know about the subject.

Originally posted by Asher
I think it's clear what we have here, it's an old man who doesn't understand the new functionality.

That statment really sent me ROFL'ing I actually can't live without change/learning new It gets even funnier considering that one of my jobs is to make more efficient userinterfaces - dang, those damn users need a new interface, but I'll stick to the old one - hope you can see the joke

It's not that big, complex programs didn't exist before IDEs like Visual Studio or even Eclipse, it's that it was a lot more work to implement them. If you actually know how to use Visual Studio and Eclipse, your productivity skyrockets compared to vi/gcc/gdb.

And your last comment about Sun Solaris Workshop must be a joke. For the first 3 years of my degree we used Sun machines and Sun IDEs at school and I don't know of anyone who liked them. This year we switched to Visual Studio (Windows PCs) and Eclipse (Linux PCs), and the difference is night and day.

You're one of the oldschool geeks afraid of change, and that's not really uncommon. I guess all of the PS2/PS3 devs who spent time hacking Visual Studio to work with Sony's compilers and debuggers were wasting all their time when they could've just been using vi the whole time...

Yeah, I'm afraid of changes - started with punchcards on an IBM mainframe, shifted to CP/M - CCP/M-CDOS - Interactive unix, SCO, SUN sparc, ICL Sys V, NCR SYS V; AIX; Ultrix (that was a scary experience ); sun Solaris intel and linux. Build apaches ad hoc, php in several flavors; XML; XSLT; web sites - and then there are all the lib stuff such as Z39.50; ILL etc. Prog languages - algol, pascal, maschine language, c, fortran, cobol, c++, VB and whatever shells may offer. You are quite right - changes scares me

[Asher]

Originally posted by BlackCat
DOH! The terminals are running MS wow !!! Clear the front pages - call CNN - new evidence are disclosed !!! All explained by some unknown canadian !!! Of course the user interface runs on some dumb terminal wether it's some non OS terminal or a pc - you keep on displaying your lack of knowledge - modern libsystems of course use a mix of web/thin/thick clients depending of functionality. What you DON'T see is systems where the backend is MS based - there is no way that MS systems can handle such. Every time you claims otherwise you just displays how little you know about the subject.

WTF are you on, man? You ask me what OSes they run, I answer, then you try to chastize me for not being an expert in LIBRARY TERMINALS? Classic.

This has nothing to do with Windows vs. other operating systems for servers, the discussion was about development environments. Is your case that weak that you want to change it to something I don't disagree with? Scroll up, I've already said I don't recognize Windows for backend servers.

I've never "claimed otherwise" that MS systems "can handle" the backend for library systems, I honestly just don't give a f*ck. My discussion was about IDEs. The fact that you seem to equate IDEs to server operating system displays just how little you know about computers.

Yeah, I'm afraid of changes - started with punchcards on an IBM mainframe, shifted to CP/M - CCP/M-CDOS - Interactive unix, SCO, SUN sparc, ICL Sys V, NCR SYS V; AIX; Ultrix (that was a scary experience ); sun Solaris intel and linux. Build apaches ad hoc, php in several flavors; XML; XSLT; web sites - and then there are all the lib stuff such as Z39.50; ILL etc. Prog languages - algol, pascal, maschine language, c, fortran, cobol, c++, VB and whatever shells may offer. You are quite right - changes scares me

Wow, listing a bunch of programming languages and environments. Even I've used the vast majority of those.

But your actions speak louder than words. You take an argument about Visual Studio vs vi for serious development, and losing that one badly you try to convert it into a discussion about Windows vs *nix for backend servers, chastizing me for not being an expert in library systems, and finally listing a bunch of environments and programming languages as if it proves something.

What I want to know is why vi is a better programming environment for complex and large software projects. I've asked this before and you avoided it, can you try to comprehend what is being asked, and answer it appropriately this time?

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by Asher

WTF are you on, man? You ask me what OSes they run, I answer, then you try to chastize me for not being an expert in LIBRARY TERMINALS? Classic.

The real question is what kind of mushrooms you are on You claim that all of those systems that you have seen are running on MS because thats the frontend you see and then you apparently think that they must be developed with VS

This has nothing to do with Windows vs. other operating systems for servers, the discussion was about development environments. Is your case that weak that you want to change it to something I don't disagree with? Scroll up, I've already said I don't recognize Windows for backend servers.

What is your problem ? can't you discuss two things at the same time ? It was your claim that lib sys was some kind of toy that doesn't needed the support of the mighty VS.

I've never "claimed otherwise" that MS systems "can handle" the backend for library systems, I honestly just don't give a f*ck. My discussion was about IDEs. The fact that you seem to equate IDEs to server operating system displays just how little you know about computers.

I guess that only very few MS programmers use the ms-dos prompt so that seems logical that people primarily uses VS,

Wow, listing a bunch of programming languages and environments. Even I've used the vast majority of those.

That I seriously doubt since many of them died before you were born (ok, enetered the IT business )

But your actions speak louder than words. You take an argument about Visual Studio vs vi for serious development, and losing that one badly you try to convert it into a discussion about Windows vs *nix for backend servers, chastizing me for not being an expert in library systems, and finally listing a bunch of environments and programming languages as if it proves something.

What I want to know is why vi is a better programming environment for complex and large software projects. I've asked this

before and you avoided it, can you try to comprehend what is being asked, and answer it appropriately this time?

No, that was you who did that. It was your claim that it was impossible to make serious programming without VS - you even tried to be funny by claiming that danish libray systems was just some kind of toy made up on linux - what really makes this funny is that there was a major canadian player in this segment that even buid their own computers for this market. Well, I guess that that isn't thaught in the MS school .

About the efficiency of different kinds of IDE's - well, my experience is that some are good and some are bad, and while I admit that VS has good things, there are several things that are bad - my summary is that I'm much faster in an vi environment than I'm in a VS - oh, that is not compared to me in the VS, that is compared to an experienced VS'er.

[Asher]

Originally posted by BlackCat
The real question is what kind of mushrooms you are on You claim that all of those systems that you have seen are running on MS because thats the frontend you see and then you apparently think that they must be developed with VS

Read what I post next time. I've never said anything like that. This is a classic example of a strawman.

I guess that only very few MS programmers use the ms-dos prompt so that seems logical that people primarily uses VS,

cygwin is painlessly installed, and developers know all about it. They can easily use vi and bash/csh/ksh in Windows if they wanted to. Most don't, though, because they prefer Visual Studio.

That I seriously doubt since many of them died before you were born (ok, enetered the IT business )

They don't die, they live on. I worked on FORTRAN compilers for the past 16 months, among other languages. I've done a COBOL course in school (Business Programming), the first language used in intro CS was Pascal, did a lot of work on OS/390 / z/OS while at IBM, did lots of work on AIX, used Solaris for 3 years, did a SPARC course as well.

No, that was you who did that. It was your claim that it was impossible to make serious programming without VS - you even tried to be funny by claiming that danish libray systems was just some kind of toy made up on linux - what really makes this funny is that there was a major canadian player in this segment that even buid their own computers for this market. Well, I guess that that isn't thaught in the MS school .

Which "MS school" are you talking about? My school experience is at a Sun school, my work experience is at IBM (which is hardly considered a "MS school"). I've never claimed it's impossible to make serious programming without VS -- I said it's considerably less efficient. And I do consider library systems a toy, it's a simplistic system that likely relies on database queries. I'm sorry you consider it complicated, but that says more about your competence than anything else.

About the efficiency of different kinds of IDE's - well, my experience is that some are good and some are bad, and while I admit that VS has good things, there are several things that are bad - my summary is that I'm much faster in an vi environment than I'm in a VS - oh, that is not compared to me in the VS, that is compared to an experienced VS'er.

This is exactly what I'm talking about -- you're full of it. This is the third or fourth time I've asked you specifically why vi is better than VS.

You have done nothing to address that. You've thrown out strawman after strawman instead, followed by a nice dose of rhetoric. Mixed in there is a laughable resume of programming languages and environments you dealt with, since you think that has anything to do with IDE efficiency.

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat


Don't tell me you wouldn't let her tell you exactly what to do?

I'd bark like a dog.