Abortion

[ajbera]

So even though it just doesn't happen, you would support a woman's choice to abort, even is she were about to give birth? Because it's still in the womb? I'm just trying to get the philosophy down, we can address real-world likelihood later.

Also, do you support any legal protections for the fetus at all? At any stage? If someone smashes the infant immediately after birth is it murder, whereas if he pounds the mother's abdomen 2 hours before birth and kill sthe fetus it's just assault on the mom?

Edit: Sorry, just read the last sentence of your last post.

[Sava]

Originally posted by ajbera
So even though it just doesn't happen, you would support a woman's choice to abort, even is she were about to give birth? Because it's still in the womb? I'm just trying to get the philosophy down, we can address real-world likelihood later.

I'm not going to respond to this hypothetical. Sorry.

If a situation like this that actually happens, I may give my opinion.

I don't like playing "What If?"

Every situation is different. Every person has different circumstances surrounding their decisions. People should decide important life changing decisions... not the government, not religious fundamentlists, and not you or me.

That is why I support freedom. That is why I support choice.

[ajbera]

Okay. A lot of people think it's entirely illogical to establish the moment of birth as the moment when a fetus/infant receives legal protection, or status as a human being.

[Sava]

Originally posted by ajbera
Okay. A lot of people think it's entirely illogical to establish the moment of birth as the moment when a fetus/infant receives legal protection, or status as a human being.

Well, there needs to be some point when it starts. Birth seems like the best point to me. It seems quite logical. Birthdays are celebrated as the beginning of our lives in every culture aren't they?

It seems only recently that Christian fundamentalists have gone off the deep end with this nonsense.

In fact, the Bible is clear about the beginning of life:

"the LORD God formed the man [a] from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being." Genesis 2:7

And when do you first breath into your nostrils? When you are born. Certainly not after conception.

Plus, if we change the beginning of personhood to conception, it is just going to screw everything up. Everyone's birthday is going to have to be moved back 9 months. In fact, we can't even call them birthdays anymore.

It must be called "Conception Day" or "Personhood Day".

These religious fundamentalists are angry about screwing up the sanctity of marriage, talk about screwing up the SANCTITY OF BIRTHDAYS!!!

Do they not think about the consequences of their actions?

And think about all the college kids who will get to drink 9 months earlier. I bet they will be happy. Oh no... this might be a great way for the pro-life base to increase their support.

HEY, LET'S OUTLAW ABORTION BY EXTENDING PERSONHOOD TO FETUSES AND YOU GUYS CAN GET DRUNK LEGALLY 9 MONTHS EARLIER

I better shut up now!

[Jon Miller]

I support a scientific physical deffinition:

When brainwaves are seen. I Think that this deffinition is much more logical and self consistent then others put forward (also, being scientific and physical, it should find more agreement then one based upon religion or sociology).

JM

[Sava]

so every day the woman's belly should be hooked up to a machine to test for "brain waves" and that is the day when a fetus is declared a person?

uhhhhh okay then....


the wonderful world of Jon Miller


BTW, cats have brainwaves... are they people too?

[Jon Miller]

No

Just before any abortion takes place.. it should be done

also, if the woman is kicked... to determine if the abuser would ge ta manslaughter accusation or not

JM

[Jon Miller]

It could also be timed.. lets say it is generally true that brainwaves are seen the 12th week. That could be the legal time.

JM

[Sava]

Jon Miller...

are you a neurologist?

[Jon Miller]

nope

but it is nice and physicial

and is the condition for other determinations of living or not

JM

[Kuciwalker]

You sure as hell aren't.

I agree that birth is an arbitrary point at which to draw the line, and that some time during pregnancy would be better.

[Sava]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
nope

but it is nice and physicial

and is the condition for other determinations of living or not

JM

okay...

I'm just curious

because you seem to be awfully sure in yourself and your abilities to make policy regarding this topic considering your lack of experience (with all due respect of course )

what makes you think testing for "brain waves" is useful in any way?

how do you plan on attaching the leads onto the fetus' head while it's still inside the mother?

maybe you can pioneer a new kind of EEG scanning technology

I had an EEG not too long ago...

have you ever had an EEG?

that is basically what you are talking about...

they attach a web-like set of leads to your scalp...

I am curious as to how you plan on doing this test on a fetus though... if you can figure this out you are a genius

[Sava]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
You sure as hell aren't.

I know more about the brain than most that have finished medical school. I've spent the past 3 years studying it. I could go to medical school and eventually become a neurologist if I wanted to.

Perhaps you have forgotten I am a genius?

That's okay, you probably don't take me seriously. No matter, I don't need your approval.

My doc is quite a guy. He's a jack of all trades. Neurologist, psychopharmacologist, basically, an expert on the brain. He's been helping me with my depression and helping me understand my condition and my brain. I'm driven to understand what is wrong with me. Why I am wired the way I am, if I am so depressed by design, by my environment, or by some chemical imbalance.

So I laugh when I read Jon Miller's comments.

Am I a neurologist?

No.

But I know a HELL of a lot more than the rest of you guys.

a hell of a lot more...

[Jaguar]

[Sava]

hey joncha!!!

oh wait...

it's just robin coming to...oh wait which one is the sidekick in this relationship again?