Chicago cafe owner takes a stand against boisterous children!

[MrFun]

Maybe this issue will be a hot-button issue in United States, with our 2008 election.

[Verto]

The problem is that many parents seem to expect everyone else to accomodate them, at any given moment. The same applies to a lot of groups, but I'll stick to parents.

People go to movies with their children, but don't take them out when they misbehave because they don't want to miss the show, or whatever reason they have.

They go to restaurants and don't take their children out, because they don't want to interrupt their meal.

Or the classic mother with five kids running around her, who expects everyone else to make way for her, because she made the decision to have more kids than she, by herself, could reasonably manage alone, and it is the duty of society to help her, rather than her husband.

Instead of teaching their children that going out to restaurants or to the movies is a privilege, and that to misbehave means said privileges will be revoked, it seems many parents view such things as their God-given rights, since with their busy and VIP lifestyle, they should not be forced to make sacrifices.

Now of course, my opinion on this matter is entirely useless, bla bla bla.

And of course, I recognize that there are many parents who raise their children properly, do not allow their children to abuse other people's property, etc.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by smacksim
Flubber, while I personally agree with you in practice that having standards so high one hardly has to wonder if they exceed the minimum for any particular place. I do that too. But, just to be completely nit-picky, one could wonder if this is like paying expenses you don't always need to: That in some circumstances lower 'standards' would be profitable and acceptable.

I don't pay for things I don't need to and negotiate hard on price. There is no advantage to me in expending more money for the same good than I need to.

With respect to behavior, I generally don't care what the minimum standard is . .. I want to aim higher. So sometimes I will pay the "price" of having my guy sit quietly in situations where running around might be accepted. I'm fine with that

Originally posted by smacksim

But the only reason I did point that out the way I did is that not everyone would agree with that, no. What do we do with all those people?

If they violate minimum standards of behavior, I guess you kick them out . . . If they don't, I guess you live with it or raise the standards. To me that is all the cafe in the OP did. They didn't like the behavior level so they raised the standards

[Q Classic]

I'm with the shopkeeper on this one. With rights come responsibilities, and it's a parent's responsibility to raise children and discipline them properly.

I have as much right to enjoy a quiet evening out as the children have for accompanying their parents; for both to coexist without either one suffering, compromises have to be made; I won't bother the kid, and the kid shouldn't bother me. With a lot of these misbehaving children, my right is harmed.

Granted, they're not rights guaranteed anywhere outside of a general social contract that involves common decency and consideration for others.

Then again, if they wish to be rude and bring children that misbehave into public, then I reserve the right to be rude and loudly retell some of my favorite dead baby jokes.

[MOBIUS]

Props to the cafe owner!

I like how one of the 'victimised' parents complains about not being able to go to 'child unfriendly' places because she can't relax - what about the rest of us trying to chill and having to endure some 100 decibel screaming brat.

Noise is a form of pollution.

I am a non smoker, but I would far prefer endure a smoke-filled room than a cafe with just one screaming brat in it...

People that are defending this sort of anti-social behaviour like JohnT and LOTM are saying 'tough, you have to endure the screaming kids' - but I'm sure they'd have a different opinion if some smoker was blowing in their childrens faces saying 'screw you, I can smoke if I like'...

That cafe owners decision is his right. He's not even banning kids, he just wants them well-behaved - though apparently the likes of JohnT and LOTM don't think kids should be well-behaved in public establishments...

Fact of the matter is that yes kids will misbehave from time to time, but the difference is whether they can controllled when they do - if they cannot due to bad parenting, they should be kicked out with extreme prejudice!

But of course JohnT thinks that nothing should be done about the brat who is repeatedly smashing his heavy metal knife down on the marble table while both his parents completely ignore him, for example...

My suspicion is that the people that are defending these anti-social brats might be the very parents that can't control their children in a normal civilised environment...

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


Reading through the thread I see plenty of things I want to comment upon, this more then the rest. How many kids do you see playing out in the yard? Even if the kids wanted to, chances are their parents have told them that it's either not safe, and that they should be inside. Same with halloween. I remember going out with my folks when I was small, nowadays, they want the kids to have daylight when they go door to door. Daylight! They feel it would be unsafe otherwise.

Wow-- Our street is filled with kids playing . Our guy is two so his play is in the fenced in back yard but generally the streets are busy . ..

Halloween?? Every child came after dark. . . It started around 6 and petered out around 8:30 or so. I was out with little Flubber and there were little people everywhere.

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
.

The same with kids in school, especially the rambunctious boys. The boys are made to feel bad for their desire to be out and about, labelled disruptive and the rest, when really it's just normal behaviour. It seems very telling in our society today that the behaviours categorised as attention deficit become a disorder needing treatment.

While I can accept that ADD may exist, I believe it is seriously overdiagnosed and even more seriously catered too. Kids in the past must have had this but yet learned to behave.

I do agree that children need time to let off steam . . . Thats why little Flubber gets a lot of time outside

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi

The second major point is the scarcity of children in today's society, particularly in the cities. I shocked myself when I was in Vancouver by how awkward I felt having a baby sit in my lap, simply because I was so isolated from that sort of thing. The same could be said by many of the patrons of the restaurant, like a child is a foreign intruder into their lives. I know there are always exceptions, but it surprises me how many folks see kids in this manner, regardless of their behaviour in public.

Hmm-- I haven't seen that here but I live in a new suburb with almost NO empty-nesters and only a few childless couples. It may be different elsewhere

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi

Finally, I think because kids are so scarce, parents are far too protective. They need to let their kids make some mistakes once in awhile, let them get hurt and learn to deal with things on their own.

Parents are more aware than ever of the dangers out there and urbanization means that there are often fewer people you know and trust in your neighborhood.

That said, I agree that children need to make mistakes and learn. I have consciously allowed little Flubber to do something that I know might hurt him a little-- I wasnt him to learn the lesson before being in a situation where it could hurt him a lot.

I also allow little Flubber to make his own way in interacting with other children. Sometime that means that I "don't see" the little pushing match or minor spat ( if little Flubber sees me see the pushing I HAVE to intervene to reinforce the lesson that fighting is wrong but if he doesn't know I can see him, IMHO its best to let similar aged kids work things out themselves)

[Dr Strangelove]

I never have a problem with noisy toddlers, because I know that before the age of five they're all scheduled to have 6 vaccination visits, receiving a total of 16 shots. You see, in the end I know that I'll get even.

[Dinner]

Kids are free to be noisy kids. All we're asking is if your child is having a screaming fit that you have consideration for everyone else by taking your child outside until it has calmed down. That way the rest of us can watch the movie or have polite conversations in restaurants.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
"It's his business; he has the right to put whatever sign he wants on the door," Ms. Miller said. "And people have the right to respond to that sign however they want."



Seems a pretty sensible response.

Yes, now if we can only allow business owners decide whether or not they want to allow smoking....

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
Well, the argument seems to be boiling down to "Right on, man!" vs. "He's a goddamn hippy!" Once again, my finger is firmly placed on the pulse of Apolyton...

QFT!

Part of the problem here is (as has been mentioned at least tangentially earlier) that our society has been breaking itself into smaller pieces for many decades now, particularly after WW2. We are segregated not only by class (and sometimes ethnicity) but almost constantly by age (your working years are the only time where you can spend much of your time with a wide range of ages who are still your peers), marital status and whether or not one has children.

This segregation has had a detrimental impact on the skills of those who raise children by reducing their exposure to that process before they were absolutely responsible for raising their own child. It has also raised everyone's expectation level in regards to how much their environment will cater to their needs specifically. These trends end up causing a lot of situations like the one described in the OP. People can reach adulthood without any real idea about child-rearing (which was extremely unusual in the era of the extended family) and with very high expectations in regards to how well their millieu caters to their particular situation in life. So we end up with parents who expect that they can do what they did before they became parents (eg hang around at the coffee shop), some of whom aren't all that skilled in socializing their children. They run afoul of the largely insular and child-ignorant non- or pre- breeding types, and the only thing both groups share is a sense of entitlement. Thank god for the marketplace, it may be crass but at least it's fair in its own way.

[Immortal Wombat]

I can't be arsed to read this thread, but I would like to point out that "children of all ages have to behave and use their indoor voices when coming to A Taste of Heaven" does not mean "children of all ages have to behave well and use an appropriately* volumed voice when coming to A Taste of Heaven (*as defined by the Management)"

[Sprayber]

I can look at this from both sides. This time last year I went places without having kids tagging along but since I've gotten closer to my girlfriend, nearly everywhere I go is with her and her two kids. For them at least I can say that their behavior is strongly based on their mood. For the most part they behave because they know they have their mom to answer to but sometimes they are just gonna be kids. I was a quiet child for the most part. A lot of that had to do with the fact that I was an only child and I got all of my mom's attention. With her kids its a constant struggle for attention.

One thing that many here need to remember, it's not always kids causing disturbances. We all have things that annoy us it can come from everyone. Smokers, teens, old people who order slow, people talking on cell phones. When you go to places where there is going to be other people you run the risk of running into someone who annoys you. In fact, chances are any one of us has annoyed someone in our lives.

With this crowd, it's almost certain.

[Zkribbler]

Originally posted by Sprayber
. . . but sometimes they are just gonna be kids. . .

And at Chucky Cheese or McDonald's, that's fine.

But if they're at a grown-up restaurant and they insist upon running up and down the aisles, screaming, or jumping on the cushions, or banging of the table with their silverware, it's time to tell the kids that -- at least for that evening -- they're not grown up enough for a place like this, and then change your order to "to go."

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

Ah, a subject near and dear to my heart.

Totally with the shopkeeper on this one. It's his shop. He can ban kids the same way Hootie and his crew can ban women members at Augusta National.

Besides, there are plenty of kid-friendly places out there for parents to take their children to. And IIRC, someone told me that single adult men are banned from Chucky Cheese. So this is analogous. Sauce for the goose...

On that note... I'm sorry, parents, but the rest of us make plenty of allowances for you already. Parents get a year of maternity/paternity leave (paid for by the taxpayer), schooling for the child (paid for by the taxpayer), family allowance (paid for by... well, you get the idea), tax deductions, social services, etc, etc. And in my workplace, parents are never the ones expected to work evenings, weekends or holidays when that sort of thing is needed, and it's understood that parents will take an indeterminate number of (extra) days off to take care of sick children. I'll bet your workplace is the same.

Movies, games, even medicine bottles are all designed to account for the possibility, however remote, that a 10-year-old will get his/her hands on them. Right now, the 10 year olds are already setting community standards!

Yes, parenting is a tough job, no question. It's also a choice. You'd have to be exceptionally naive to think that having a child won't affect what you can do, where you can go, and how others view you. And I'm truly sorry, but I don't believe that your having a child entitles you and your child to an exemption from the standards and responsibilities that the rest of us have to maintain.

I know this sounds like a rant, and I'm probably over the top on this one. But for crying out loud... get a babysitter, or stay home and let the rest of us get drunk, watch porn, and enjoy our Danish and coffee in peace and quiet.

[aneeshm]

I don't get the outrage over this . If somebody thinks that a bawling child will do the ambience of his establishment harm , what is wrong in his asking parents to make sure that their child does not spoil the ambience ?