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Chicago cafe owner takes a stand against boisterous children!

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  • Kids who come over and say hi to me will generally get a "hi" and a smile from me. Not a problem. And it doesn't rise to the level of what is dicussed in the OP. Not even close.

    Everyone's tolerance for such things is different. I'm pretty tolerant, my wife less so (if we don't have kids, it's probably b/c of her, not me). Neither of us, however, even if we were having a bad day, would be annoyed by a child who wandered by and said hello.

    There is much worse going on in a restaurant/store/etc near you, and I'm *sure* you've seen it.

    -Arrian
    grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

    The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Flubber


      Some of the posters here seem seem so anti kid that even having a child approach their table and call out "hello" might bug them .. . or having us traipse by on 3 different occasions . . .
      OH!!! The horror!
      A lot of Republicans are not racist, but a lot of racists are Republican.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by MrFun
        I've read most of the posts in this thread.

        Seems to me that some pro-parent advocates in here and some anti-children advocates in here are both guilty of taking the other side to an extreme, distorting and exaggerating the position of the side they disagree with.
        I don't know if you are including me in your post. I only can assume you are.

        My position is not anti-children by any means. Note, I am not saying you said it is. But undoubtedly, some people will think it is.

        My position is neutral when it comes to children.

        I like kids. I have two young cousins that I love very much... Abby and Catherine. They are adorable little angels. Their parents, my cousin Amy and her husband Andy are very good parents.

        My issue is with bad parents. My issue is with obnoxious kids that have bad behavior because their parents are morons. I see them everywhere. Just about anytime I go into a fastfood restaurant there is some Mom with out of control kids who didn't know when to stop having kids. Some people are not cut out for parenthood and should not be allowed to have children. Period.

        I am not anti-children. I am not anti-family.

        I am pro-family.

        I think that children should be raised by responsible parents who can handle the burden of parenthood. Hence, having a child should require a license just like the process you go through adopting a child.

        Now I have no idea how this would be implemented, but in principle, I think it is the right thing to do.

        Maybe in the end it is not practicle... I don't know... but all I know is that a lot of problems in this world can be traced to bad parenting... I figure if we can nip that in the butt, we can solve a lot of problems.

        Does this make sense?
        To us, it is the BEAST.

        Comment


        • Well, when referring to the two opposite opinions in here, I wished there were better choices of words than the simplistic "anti-children" and "pro-parent" but in my haste, I couldn't think of better words when referring to the contesting opinion groups.
          A lot of Republicans are not racist, but a lot of racists are Republican.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Arrian
            Flubber - I'm not talking about what you described, I'm really not.
            Good . Mrs Flubber and I do the best we can . . . But at his age he is exuberant and inquisitive and sometimes loud.

            Because of that we make common sense decisions and avoid places that require long periods of inactivity and quiet. The reality is that we don't usually go to restaurants . . . Coffee shops are easier since you can get your stuff and go and besides he is usually pretty well-behaved in his stroller

            Frankly I see no problem with either kid-friendly or "no-kids" restaurants. Each caters to a different type of clientele and people can patronize or not as they wish
            You don't get to 300 losses without being a pretty exceptional goaltender.-- Ben Kenobi speaking of Roberto Luongo

            Comment


            • Originally posted by MrFun
              Well, when referring to the two opposite opinions in here, I wished there were better choices of words than the simplistic "anti-children" and "pro-parent" but in my haste, I couldn't think of better words when referring to the contesting opinion groups.
              Oh I understand.

              In these situations, there really is no easy way to describe the opposing POV's.
              To us, it is the BEAST.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by lord of the mark


                I strongly disagree with you about the age at which larger cultural influences start. Perhaps not toddlers, but preschoolers are already exposed to heavy media influence. And yes, many parents let the TV (and even the PC) be the electronic baby sitter from the toddler years. At that point the impact is largely from the nature of the stimulus itself, rather than from the content per se.
                Don't get the diapers in a wad. We still agree on this. As you deftly but inadvertently point out, its the parents who have been influenced by society in this case. The point I was making above is that even the most austere and luddite parent will have a hard time resisting the influences of the junk culture on their child once the child enters the 'social ages'. I'm sure we agree on this, for you cannot on the one hand say: "Good parents can create a strong sense of community and belonging and identity for their child, can resist junk culture in the home, etc.." and on the other say that its society's 'fault' when these supposedly good parents abandon their child to the boob-tube (suckle suckle).

                But one can say, and does, that no matter the quality of parenting, older children are increasingly influenced by society at large and are pre-disposed to interact and experiment with its mores (as is perfectly healthy). The hypothetical perfect child will not cocoon themselves from every influence but plunge headlong into making grand mistakes to more quickly learn viscerally what they comprehend experientially in the family as it applies to the larger world. Thats all I'm saying
                Aldebaran 2.1 for Smax is in Beta Testing. Join us for our first Succession Game

                Comment


                • The fact is that there are a lot more kid unfriendly places nowadays. So few kids are in our cities that the adults without kids aren't used to what kids do and expect them to do what adults do. This is what is happening in the case of the Chicago cafe (they are not in outer suburbia, where many/most of you live). Even relatively well-behaved kids do not act like adults and should not be expected to act like adults.

                  It takes me several days to adjust when I leave the city. The first day or so, kids annoy me. After that, I'm fine.
                  Last edited by DanS; November 10, 2005, 13:03.
                  I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Arrian
                    Kids who come over and say hi to me will generally get a "hi" and a smile from me. Not a problem. And it doesn't rise to the level of what is dicussed in the OP. Not even close.

                    Everyone's tolerance for such things is different. I'm pretty tolerant, my wife less so (if we don't have kids, it's probably b/c of her, not me). Neither of us, however, even if we were having a bad day, would be annoyed by a child who wandered by and said hello.

                    There is much worse going on in a restaurant/store/etc near you, and I'm *sure* you've seen it.

                    -Arrian
                    Of course. Like I said , Baby Flubber usually gets a smile and a wave and a "hello" in return . .. It just seemed like some of the people here were so anti-kid that daring encroach on their solitude, even momentarily would be offensive.

                    I've seen the out-of-control kids too and don't like it. My dislike comes on many levels

                    1) I feel for kids who are not learning proper discipline
                    2) I also feel peeved at the disruption
                    3) it makes contolling my little guy that much harder-- he might know that "screaming" or running is not allowed but then wonder why I'm not stopping the nearby screaming or running

                    I suspect however that I would have a greated tolerance than most of the non-parents for these types of situations. Sometimes Toddler Flubber does scream and I don't necessarily remove him immediately. Imagine he is screaming because he wants to leave . . . Leaving reinforces screaming as a an effective tactic so I won't do it.

                    I am sorry if the minute or two of screaming interrupts your dinner but maintaining consistent parenting to my child is more important to me than your momentary distraction. If it continues, as a courtesy I would remove my guy temporarily to the washroom or something but sorry, I can't leave the restaurant just because my guy wants to. Non-parents might not get this, but you can't give in to the screaming or you just get more and more of it.

                    So that parent that you condemn because they are "ignoring"a screaming child, MIGHT actually be a very very good parent that is instilling a needed lesson. If its me , know that I am actually quite mortified.

                    Thankfully the lesson is sinking in. When Toddler flubber starts throwing a fit now, usually all we need to do is say "Do you want a time out" and thats enough for him to stop.
                    You don't get to 300 losses without being a pretty exceptional goaltender.-- Ben Kenobi speaking of Roberto Luongo

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by smacksim


                      Don't get the diapers in a wad. We still agree on this. As you deftly but inadvertently point out, its the parents who have been influenced by society in this case. The point I was making above is that even the most austere and luddite parent will have a hard time resisting the influences of the junk culture on their child once the child enters the 'social ages'. I'm sure we agree on this, for you cannot on the one hand say: "Good parents can create a strong sense of community and belonging and identity for their child, can resist junk culture in the home, etc.." and on the other say that its society's 'fault' when these supposedly good parents abandon their child to the boob-tube (suckle suckle).
                      We agree, for the most part. I dont draw as hard and fast a line about the social influences that act against parents and those that act through parents - i dont subscribe to certain artificial distinctions on the pathways of social influence, dear though they are to libertarians and others.

                      If I had a dollar for everytime someone criticized us for NOT exposing POTM earlier to TV, or to PC's, well, Id go to better restaurants And you resist that pressure, and then someone rants about how parents dont need support. Youre damned no matter what you do when youre a parent - theres always somebody who knows how to do it better than you, and who wants to blame every problem of society on you.
                      "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Flubber


                        3) it makes contolling my little guy that much harder-- he might know that "screaming" or running is not allowed but then wonder why I'm not stopping the nearby screaming or running
                        yeah, but to the theorist of personal responsibility, what other kids do should have NO impact on the interaction between you and your kid. You should control your kid, like you control your dog. That there is a family dynamic, and that its influenced by the social dynamic, is something excluded by their theoretical assumptions.

                        Wait till your kid is 12 and is on your case to buy "copkiller 2.0" cause, like, all the other kids have it. Now you may well succeed in resisting that - I suspect you will. But the existence of the social dynamic will impose a COST on you - a pychological cost, a cost in family relations. A cost that is totally discounted by folks with little sympathy for parents.
                        "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

                        Comment


                        • The screaming thing is a matter of how long & how loud, ya know? There is no definite point at which it becomes acceptable/unacceptable. I *do* understand that kids scream. Sometimes 'cause they're upset, and sometimes just 'cause I also agree that if the kid is screaming about wanting to leave, leaving immediately may reinforce the behavoir, putting you in quite a bind.

                          I may not have kids, but being sort of a 1/2 generation off from most of my family, I have MANY nephews, nieces, cousins, etc. who are now teenagers - so I kinda watched them grow up.

                          Anyway, like I said, since everyone's tolerance for such things is different, there is no real solution to this "problem" (to the extent there is a real problem). One coffee shop can cater to cranky adults who don't like kids and another can cater to families.

                          -Arrian
                          grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

                          The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by lord of the mark

                            If I had a dollar for everytime someone criticized us for NOT exposing POTM earlier to TV, or to PC's, well, Id go to better restaurants And you resist that pressure, and then someone rants about how parents dont need support. Youre damned no matter what you do when youre a parent - theres always somebody who knows how to do it better than you, and who wants to blame every problem of society on you.
                            well, if you want my opinion (and you probably don't )

                            as you probably know, I am a huge fan of PC games (including M rated, but I also like others like Civ) and TV... I respect parents' rights to raise their children however they see fit. If they believe TV is "the devil" (as my grandmother used to call it), then that is their prerogative.

                            However, I personally find it rather silly to shield kids from such things. That doesn't mean I'd allow a young kid to watch slasher movies. But I think by junior high (6th grade) they start to become mature enough to start watching some of that stuff. Plus, it has the added bonus of becoming a privilage you can take away.
                            To us, it is the BEAST.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by lord of the mark


                              yeah, but to the theorist of personal responsibility, what other kids do should have NO impact on the interaction between you and your kid.


                              I actually agree that what other kids get to do do will not impact the decisions I believe to be right. Thats why toddler Flubber doesn't get to run around in a resataurant even if other kids are doing it. BUT . . . All a 2 year old knows is that those kids right there are having more fun. Maybe when he is 5 or 6 or 10 he might understand better . ..


                              Originally posted by lord of the mark




                              Wait till your kid is 12 and is on your case to buy "copkiller 2.0" cause, like, all the other kids have it. Now you may well succeed in resisting that - I suspect you will.
                              The name alone tells me I will

                              Originally posted by lord of the mark


                              But the existence of the social dynamic will impose a COST on you - a pychological cost, a cost in family relations. A cost that is totally discounted by folks with little sympathy for parents.
                              For sure. When I was a child I fought my curfews . . they were earlier than other children . My parents maintained them despite my opposition. Sometimes it is HARD to do what you believe needs to be done to be a good parent. But thats ok it should be hard.


                              Oh and this weekend is a "daddy weekend"-- Mrs Flubber is working the twelve hour night shifts so not only am I the sole caregiver but I have to get the little guy out of the house so Mommy can sleep a bit. So it will be playgrounds and parks or if the weather is bad, inside a local mall ( or perhaps the zoo)-- he likes hockey so I might buy him a hockey stick . . I probably should put on my shin pads to play with him
                              You don't get to 300 losses without being a pretty exceptional goaltender.-- Ben Kenobi speaking of Roberto Luongo

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by lord of the mark
                                Youd rather no one had kids?
                                Plenty of parents can support their kids, and keep them well behaved (Flubber's posts in this thread for example show him to be a parent who has raised his kid very well).
                                “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
                                - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

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