Chicago cafe owner takes a stand against boisterous children!

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten

its all the junk culture, esp the frigging video games

I disagree. Video games teach kids to be quiet, lest they alert the Covenant to their presence. Better to melee those Grunts while they're still asleep.

QFT

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

Now youve gotta know, smack, that the original poster here is the one who rushes to slam every pol who takes issue with some video game or other "in the name of the kids". Now, personally, I dont see how we can communicate to our kids a set of social expectations, a respect for the rights of others, and of authority, when the whole society is pushing on them DISRESPECT for authority, for the rights of others, and for even the very idea of tradition.

Because 'M' rated video games are really dictating childrens' behavior. If they are, the people to blame are the parents who are allowing the kids to play games (or on the contrary to watch shows) that are not meant for them. For some reason, LOTM, you don't seem to believe in parental responsibility. You want the society to temper themselves and raise the children. I'm sorry, but it's the parents responsibility to raise their kids. And an 8 year old shouldn't be playing a game which is made for 18+ year olds. The fact that parents are shunning their responsibilities doesn't mean that every other aspect of society should kow tow and now teach the children.

As smacksim said, having expections of children are not incompatable with a violence and sex obsessed culture, which is not intended for those who are under a certain age.

Frankly it's a copout to say that this violence and sex obsessed junk culture is responsible for parents not adequately socializing their kids. And uncompelling in the slightest.

Ive never asked that M rated games be banned - i have asked for proper labeling, and enforcement. You expect parents to monitor what their kids buy and play and watch - also what they play and watch at friends houses - at the same time you have no sympathy for parents out in public, even reading a newpaper over coffee - you expect parents to do it all with no support.

Parents are not the only ones who raise the kids in any good society. It DOES take a village. Kids need more than their parents. They need neighbors and grandparents and cops and teachers and clergy and storeowners and restaurant owners. And they need a society that makes it possible to be a child before being an adult, and that doesnt make its living selling things to them, using them to manipulate parents into purchases, hypocritically relying on underage sales to support products nominallly meant for adults, or, in the case of tobacco, for ex, products that are rarely used by someone who didnt get hooked as a minor.

[Imran Siddiqui]

you expect parents to do it all with no support.

Well they are the ones who decided to have the kids. They should be the ones to support them.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by smacksim

I do agree with you about this latter, but more indirectly. As you said: "children had expectations, and so did everyone else. And traditions, and community", these and other things are not completely incompatible with a violence and sex-obsessed junk culture, for if you have the former then the latter is exterior to your sense of propriety. Its only those who lack for one that cannot resist the other.

In Japan, say, the sense of social expectations is so strong, that the effects of the junk culture can be contained. Probably true, though I dont know for how long even the Japanese culture can maintain its expectations. And I dont think thats transferable to the US. I cant speak for Europe.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

you expect parents to do it all with no support.

Well they are the ones who decided to have the kids. They should be the ones to support them.

Youd rather no one had kids?

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Arrian
I just wonder how the parents feel... I mean, if it were my kid, I'd be mortified. Some people don't seem to care very much, though.

-Arrian

This parent cares very much. At our last visit to a restaurant, my son was very quiet and well-behaved as he ate his meal, but as soon as he was "all done" he wanted to walk around. (At home, he is allowed to be excused as soon as he is finished) Although he remained quiet it was apparent that he desired to explore. As soon as he left our table, I took him by the hand and allowed him to walk out of the restaurant. he did take the opportunity to wave and say "hello" to a couple of nearby tables as we passed but if that bugs someone , my response is "bite me"

I played with my son outside for a while and I returned when my next course came. In the course of the meal my wife and I probably took him outside 3 times, but there was no screaming or running about. We don't tolerate that. And again if it bugs people to see a child and an adult walking in and out 3 to 4 times an hour, I repeat "bite me"

[MrFun]

I've read most of the posts in this thread.

Seems to me that some pro-parent advocates in here and some anti-children advocates in here are both guilty of taking the other side to an extreme, distorting and exaggerating the position of the side they disagree with.

[smacksim]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

Now youve gotta know, smack, that the original poster here is the one who rushes to slam every pol who takes issue with some video game or other "in the name of the kids". Now, personally, I dont see how we can communicate to our kids a set of social expectations, a respect for the rights of others, and of authority, when the whole society is pushing on them DISRESPECT for authority, for the rights of others, and for even the very idea of tradition.

Because 'M' rated video games are really dictating childrens' behavior. If they are, the people to blame are the parents who are allowing the kids to play games (or on the contrary to watch shows) that are not meant for them. For some reason, LOTM, you don't seem to believe in parental responsibility. You want the society to temper themselves and raise the children. I'm sorry, but it's the parents responsibility to raise their kids. And an 8 year old shouldn't be playing a game which is made for 18+ year olds. The fact that parents are shunning their responsibilities doesn't mean that every other aspect of society should kow tow and now teach the children.

On the other hand I do agree with LotM about the effect of an entire culture geared towards irresponsibility. When kids get to a social age it is the exception rather than the normal child who can resist every one his/her peers, idols, teachers, role-models, entertainment, and friends' influences. As one author has described us as "The Adolescent Society", even the parents are not quite growing up. In this situation it is nearly impossible for even the best parent to entirely dissuade their children from taking a few apples from the tree, a few grapes from the bachic plate of indulgence and irresponsibilty. I've seen many parents fall to pieces because of this. At some point, while the onus is still on the parents, the blame does lie with the culture. Thats the point at which LotM and I agreed that its too big to go into here: The adolescent years.

So, cutting that off from debate, can parents 'blame' society for poor behavior in toddlers and babies? Of course not. But people can say that society has some blame in being too ambiguous in rule-setting and standard-bearing wrt parents rights, babies rights, etc.. So I still don't get LotM's point about it being family-unfriendly [the world]. Certainly almost everything is tilted away from responsibility and decency for parents / proprietors. How is this 'unfriendly' to families?

[SpencerH]

Originally posted by Flubber


This parent cares very much. At our last visit to a restaurant, my son was very quiet and well-behaved as he ate his meal, but as soon as he was "all done" he wanted to walk around. (At home, he is allowed to be excused as soon as he is finished) Although he remained quiet it was apparent that he desired to explore. As soon as he left our table, I took him by the hand and allowed him to walk out of the restaurant. he did take the opportunity to wave and say "hello" to a couple of nearby tables as we passed but if that bugs someone , my response is "bite me"

I played with my son outside for a while and I returned when my next course came. In the course of the meal my wife and I probably took him outside 3 times, but there was no screaming or running about. We don't tolerate that. And again if it bugs people to see a child and an adult walking in and out 3 to 4 times an hour, I repeat "bite me"

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui


You are in retail right now, right? I can symphatize... when I worked at CVS, the kids were a freaking NIGHTMARE. Especially when they ran around the store, knocking stuff over. Sometimes I felt like yelling at the parents to stop their kids or else put everything they knocked over where it belongs.

I control my little guy at retail stores but will let him have innocent fun. Example . . . we were at Future shop and he decided to run around. I followed him at about 3 feet behind him ( a run for him doesn't even get up to a brisk walk for me) as we did about 10 laps around 2 aisles of large appliances . He touched nothing, the aisles were unoccupied and did not yell. Someone might say misbehaving child but to me it was a way to let him have some more fun before I picked him up and went and looked at laptops ( an area where he does NOT roam at all.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Flubber


This parent cares very much. At our last visit to a restaurant, my son was very quiet and well-behaved as he ate his meal, but as soon as he was "all done" he wanted to walk around. (At home, he is allowed to be excused as soon as he is finished) Although he remained quiet it was apparent that he desired to explore. As soon as he left our table, I took him by the hand and allowed him to walk out of the restaurant. he did take the opportunity to wave and say "hello" to a couple of nearby tables as we passed but if that bugs someone , my response is "bite me"

I played with my son outside for a while and I returned when my next course came. In the course of the meal my wife and I probably took him outside 3 times, but there was no screaming or running about. We don't tolerate that. And again if it bugs people to see a child and an adult walking in and out 3 to 4 times an hour, I repeat "bite me"

Flubber, why would that bother others?

good post

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by smacksim


On the other hand I do agree with LotM about the effect of an entire culture geared towards irresponsibility. When kids get to a social age it is the exception rather than the normal child who can resist every one his/her peers, idols, teachers, role-models, entertainment, and friends' influences. As one author has described us as "The Adolescent Society", even the parents are not quite growing up. In this situation it is nearly impossible for even the best parent to entirely dissuade their children from taking a few apples from the tree, a few grapes from the bachic plate of indulgence and irresponsibilty. I've seen many parents fall to pieces because of this. At some point, while the onus is still on the parents, the blame does lie with the culture. Thats the point at which LotM and I agreed that its too big to go into here: The adolescent years.

So, cutting that off from debate, can parents 'blame' society for poor behavior in toddlers and babies? Of course not. But people can say that society has some blame in being too ambiguous in rule-setting and standard-bearing wrt parents rights, babies rights, etc.. So I still don't get LotM's point about it being family-unfriendly [the world]. Certainly almost everything is tilted away from responsibility and decency for parents / proprietors. How is this 'unfriendly' to families?

I strongly disagree with you about the age at which larger cultural influences start. Perhaps not toddlers, but preschoolers are already exposed to heavy media influence. And yes, many parents let the TV (and even the PC) be the electronic baby sitter from the toddler years. At that point the impact is largely from the nature of the stimulus itself, rather than from the content per se.

[Arrian]

Flubber - I'm not talking about what you described, I'm really not.

LOTM -

If we lived in a family friendly world, a kid friendly world, and there were a few spoiled yuppie parents acting like jerks, id sympathize with the complaints. But when folks who dont recognize how family unfriendly this world is, and who defend some of the very cultural changes that make it unfriendly, come ranting about parents wanting to be worshipped, or some such BS...

Our society is unfriendly to families? How so? As far as I can tell, having kids is still the societal norm, and it's the ones who DON'T get married/have kids who are generally outside the mainstream (and thus are not catered too, except in niches).

Yet there are several parents in this thread who clearly feel that society is giving them less than their due... and I generally respect those posters, so I'm curious. How is our society anti-family?

-Arrian

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Arrian
Flubber - I'm not talking about what you described, I'm really not.

LOTM -



Our society is unfriendly to families? How so? As far as I can tell, having kids is still the societal norm, and it's the ones who DON'T get married/have kids who are generally outside the mainstream (and thus are not catered too, except in niches).

Yet there are several parents in this thread who clearly feel that society is giving them less than their due... and I generally respect those posters, so I'm curious. How is our society anti-family?

-Arrian

Im not saying the society is giving ME less than my due - you misunderstand. Im not asking for a handout for parents. Im saying the whole structure of society makes it hard to raise to children, and makes it hard to be a child - as I said it deprives children of innocence, of the kind of safe atmosphere for play that some of us had growing up, etc. Im NOT saying that singles, or childless adults are too favored - this isnt a zero sum game - I think many who dont have children have been harmed by some of the same social trends, though perhaps not as much.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by MrFun


Flubber, why would that bother others?

Some of the posters here seem seem so anti kid that even having a child approach their table and call out "hello" might bug them .. . or having us traipse by on 3 different occasions . . .

MOst folks though wave back at him and say hello in return.