This is such BS.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Mao
To totally be off-topic here, I'm curious as to how many Africans were sold by their countrymen

The vast majority. Most white slave traders didn't go sneaking through jungles looking for villagers to capture. No, they had locals do that for them then traded western manufactured goods to the Africans for the slaves.

[Mao]

Originally posted by Oerdin


The vast majority. Most white slave traders didn't go sneaking through jungles looking for villagers to capture. No, they had locals do that for them then traded western manufactured goods to the Africans for the slaves.

Ummm...did you read the rest of my post?

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by SlowwHand
Bzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. Wrong. Mayflower brought Puritans.
They came over religious freedoms.

No, they came because they couldn't enforce their particular version of Christianity on the rest of the population.


Once they arrived in North America they went about remedying that situation- martyrs to Protestant religious intolerance included the Quakers hanged in Boston for the exercise of their religious beliefs.

The colony of Massachusetts had become a rigid Calvinist theocracy, intolerant of religious dissent.

In fact, it took an appeal to Charles II to halt the persecution and hanging of Quakers.

The USA was founded on religious principles.

No, it wasn't.

Point out to us which 'religious principles' (and which religion or religions they come from) are enshrined in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution of the United States.

"The clergy, by getting themselves established by law and ingrafted into the machine of government, have been a very formidable engine against the civil and religious rights of man."

Thomas Jefferson to Jeremiah Moor, 1800.

The principles of the United States have more to do with debates on essential freedoms and natural law and civil liberties taking place throughout the period of the Enlightenment.

The individual colonies that came to make up the United States (of French, English, Dutch, and Spanish origin) were settled by a variety of different groups, at different times, for different reasons; some settlers were religious groups, some were convicts, some indentured servants, some slaves.

Let's see what an ex-president has to say on the matter:

"In matters of religion, I have considered that its free exercise is placed by the Constitution independent of the powers of the general government. I have therefore undertaken on no occasion to prescribe the religious exercises suited to it; but have left them as the Constitution found them, under the direction and discipline of State or Church authorities acknowledged by the several religious societies. "

Thomas Jefferson; Second Inaugural Address, 1805.


This one is good material for use against the Creationists and the Southern Baptists :

"Whenever... preachers, instead of a lesson in religion, put [their congregation] off with a discourse on the Copernican system, on chemical affinities, on the construction of government, or the characters or conduct of those administering it, it is a breach of contract, depriving their audience of the kind of service for which they are salaried, and giving them, instead of it, what they did not want, or, if wanted, would rather seek from better sources in that particular art of science."

Thomas Jefferson to P. H. Wendover, 1815.

http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/jefferson/quotations/jeff1650.htm

[MrFun]

Let's not let facts get in the way of misconceptions, Molly.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Cookie Monster


Sounds pretty fascistic to me.

I'll elect a fascist anyday as long as he can spell

[lord of the mark]

'"The question is, is it politically motivated?" said Joe Mirando, an engineer from Burbank. "That's the underlying feeling of everyone here."

Marcus Owens, the church's tax attorney and a former head of the IRS tax-exempt section, said he doubts that's the case.

"I think it is more a case of senior management at IRS not paying attention to what the rules are," he said.'



Yup. Theres plenty of "political" sermons on both sides of plenty of issues at churches and synagogues (and mosques?) in this country. The key thing that ministers and rabbis watch out for, is that theyre not endorsing a political CANDIDATE, as THAT can endanger tax exempt status. Sounds like some bureucrat at IRS made a mistake. Easy one for a tax lawyer, I think.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by GePap
Jamestown beat the Pilgrim settlers by 20 years. This country was founded as a way to make money for the English crown, and for the people living there, of course.

HOw dare we let filthy faith tarnish lovely wealth

Of course one of the three ships that carried the Jamestown settlers was the Godspeed.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by SlowwHand
I attend a Methodist Church. I have no idea what the minister's political beliefs are, but I do know that last 2 organists were Gay.

All organists are gay. I thought everyone knew that.

[Ted Striker]

*Does the Church Lady dance*

[Dinner]

Originally posted by lord of the mark

Of course one of the three ships that carried the Jamestown settlers was the Godspeed.

They may have named a ship with a nod to religion but they weren't there to save souls. They were there to make cold hard cash.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Originally posted by SlowwHand
Bzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. Wrong. Mayflower brought Puritans.
They came over religious freedoms.

Um, no. Sure, that's what they said, but the Puritans set up the kind of repressive theocracy that would have made the Saudis proud. Luckily, their banished dissenters moved to Rhode Island, which quickly became the most tolerant (and revolutionary) colony, being thoroughly ornery and anti-authority in every respect (so much so that they initially refused to sign the Constitution, cuz no one tells Rhode Island what to do, dammit!).

edit: Mr. Fun and Molly beat me to it, but the point bears repeating -- especially this close to Thanksgiving .

[loinburger]

Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly
(so much so that they initially refused to sign the Constitution, cuz no one tells Rhode Island what to do, dammit!)

Didn't they have to get blockaded before they signed it?

Edit: Nevermind, according to Wikipedia, the other colonies didn't have to go quite that far...

Rhode Island was the first of the British colonies in America to declare its independence on May 4, 1776. Rhode Island was the last of the original 13 states to ratify the United States Constitution (May 29, 1790) - doing so after being threatened of having its exports taxed as a foreign nation.

[Kuciwalker]

Um, no. Sure, that's what they said, but the Puritans set up the kind of repressive theocracy that would have made the Saudis proud. Luckily, their banished dissenters moved to Rhode Island, which quickly became the most tolerant (and revolutionary) colony, being thoroughly ornery and anti-authority in every respect (so much so that they initially refused to sign the Constitution, cuz no one tells Rhode Island what to do, dammit!).

I thought that was because a common economic zone threatened several Rhode Island industries that profited from the separation, such as currency changing.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly


Um, no. Sure, that's what they said, but the Puritans set up the kind of repressive theocracy that would have made the Saudis proud. Luckily, their banished dissenters moved to Rhode Island, which quickly became the most tolerant (and revolutionary) colony, being thoroughly ornery and anti-authority in every respect (so much so that they initially refused to sign the Constitution, cuz no one tells Rhode Island what to do, dammit!).

edit: Mr. Fun and Molly beat me to it, but the point bears repeating -- especially this close to Thanksgiving .

Pennsylvania was also a second colony that was accepting of different religions.

[child of Thor]

I agree with Oerdin, the double standard is bad. But you have to realise that in your country a large and dirty political war is being fought. On the one side a rather insidious, shadowy, paranoid and undemocratic force; on the other what i see as the people trying to represent true democracy - with all its flaws.
So dont get too angry(it aint good for blood pressure ), but i'm glad your hear pointing out these things, and that many americans are waking up to this threat