The Death Penalty

[Odin]

Originally posted by Sava


you quote something I pretty much shot down?



nice one

You provide NO evidence, you provide NOTHING!

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Sava
And as Sloww has pointed out, DP is not about vengeance... it is about punishment.

First, there is no justification for such a punishment. Second, after you kill the person he (or she) doesn't feel a thing anymore. It's more of a punishment if you lock that person away for a very long time.

[SlowwHand]

http://www.tdcj.state.tx.us/stat/deathrow.htm

[Sava]

Originally posted by Odin


You provide NO evidence, you provide NOTHING!

I haven't really made any specific claims that require support.

Most of what I have said in this thread is common knowledge.

If you are refering to the numbers you quoted, I actually asked flash to post sources, which he did, and we discussed his sources and the information provided.

The racial issue is not really relevant. It's pretty much a strawman.

The stats can be twisted to show anything. The Oklahoma City bombings are a great example. The victims of that completely skew the statistics for victims of death penalty cases.

You can reread my earlier post as I completely destroyed the racism argument about the DP.

[flash9286]

Originally posted by Sava


I don't think you are aware of how rare the DP is used in America nowadays.

Very few states use it... and only the most violent offenders receive it.

It isn't "arbitrarily administrated" by any means.

With all due respect, you hold a great many misconceptions about the DP.

funny the ABA and APA agree with me, and obivously haven't read of the articles. I recommend you go do some research on the DP and how race and income play determining roles in capital punishment yourself.

[SlowwHand]

White: 31.1%
Black: 40.6%
Hispanic: 27.3%
Other: 1.0%

Hmmm. I don't know. Doesn't look racist to me.

[Sava]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger


First, there is no justification for such a punishment. Second, after you kill the person he (or she) doesn't feel a thing anymore. It's more of a punishment if you lock that person away for a very long time.

First, there is absolutely a justification. They commited a violent, heinous crime and have been found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.


Second, if there is no justification for putting them to death, then how could there be a justification for doing something that, in your words, is more of a punishment?

[Sava]

Originally posted by flash9286

funny the ABA and APA agree with me, and obivously haven't read of the articles. I recommend you go do some research on the DP and how race and income play determining roles in capital punishment yourself.

irrelevant...

the same factors (race and income) determine in ALL incarceration as well...

not just the DP

and yes, I have read on the DP... I am INFORMED about it...

I don't buy into the nonsense...

what anti-DP don't realize is that all this stuff about race is EQUAL when it comes to the entire justice SYSTEM!!!

the DP is not applied in a racist manner... sorry...

BTW, Timothy McVeigh got the DP

[Cyclotron]

How is it irrelevant? You speak of deterrance, but when I bring up what deters it, now it's irrelevant?

Actually, no, I never said the word 'deterrance' once. Why don't you take your own advice and read the damn thread?

well, I've shared my concerns about wrongly convicting people...

however, with DNA evidence and such nowadays, I believe this is less of an issue... it should be noted that many of the people that have been released have been released due to DNA evidence proving their innocence...

but still, death penalty or not, people can still be wrongly convicted... and the death penalty is usually not carried out for many years, leaving ample time for appeals and such... I don't doubt that innocent people have been put to death, but I believe it is possible to fix the problems in the system, rather than to throw the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak.

And as Sloww has pointed out, DP is not about vengeance... it is about punishment.

While DNA evidence does make it less of an issue, it still is not a non-issue. Any single person who is executed wrongly makes the whole system wrong in my opinion, and the possibility of that happening still exists despite DNA evidence (which is not even used in all cases).

And while it is true that people can be wrongly convicted and given life in prison as well, they can be released at any time - once you kill somebody, you can't take it back. And I don't accept the baby and bathwater analogy, because I don't conceive of there being any positive or beneficial effect from the death penalty - it's not a baby, it's a corpse, and I have no problem throwing that out with the bathwater.

I also don't believe that punishment, as you describe it, is very different from vengeance. If society and its people are protected with life imprisonment, why is it necessary to execute?

[Cyclotron]

but my original question still remains... and no one has answered it...

why keep a violent murderer alive in prison?

Why?

What purpose does it serve?

How is it productive at all?

It is no more 'productive' than killing him, but is less final, should evidence be found later of his innocence. Speaking in terms of productivity probably isn't best when discussing the justice system.

[SlowwHand]

Oh my. Someone is developing a poor attitude.
Won't mention any names, but the initials are Cyclotron.

Ok, I'll spot you the deterrance factor.
We've also said the penalty is reserved. It is NOT mandatory.
If you don't think it should at least be an available option, no one is going to change your mind, probably.
Which bothers me none in the least.

Where do you live?
How's about this? How about anyone that wants to, send these special cases to you?
You house them. You rehabilitate them. Like that idea?
Texas won't send them. We don't shirk problems onto others, but I bet you might get a little business from elsewhere.

[Cyclotron]

Originally posted by SlowwHand
Oh my. Someone is developing a poor attitude.
Won't mention any names, but the initials are Cyclotron.

Ok, I'll spot you the deterrance factor.

How very kind of you.

Where do you live?

Usually, California or Washington.

How's about this? How about anyone that wants to, send these special cases to you?
You house them. You rehabilitate them. Like that idea?
Texas won't send them. We don't shirk problems onto others, but I bet you might get a little business from elsewhere.

You misunderstand. I've never advocated rehabilitation for such serious offenders - on some of the other threads where people are spouting off stuff like "rehabilitate the serial killers," I'm on your side. Clearly, some kinds of criminals cannot be rehabilitated. I fail to see, however, what this has to do with capital punishment vs. life in prison.

[SlowwHand]

Simply this. If they can't be rehabilitated, they remain a constant threat.

[Cyclotron]

Originally posted by SlowwHand
Simply this. If they can't be rehabilitated, they remain a constant threat.

If they were 100% all guaranteed to be guilty - if our justice system was perfect - that reasoning would be enough.

But it isn't.

[flash9286]

Originally posted by Sava


irrelevant...

the same factors (race and income) determine in ALL incarceration as well...

not just the DP

and yes, I have read on the DP... I am INFORMED about it...

I don't buy into the nonsense...

what anti-DP don't realize is that all this stuff about race is EQUAL when it comes to the entire justice SYSTEM!!!

the DP is not applied in a racist manner... sorry...

BTW, Timothy McVeigh got the DP

Fine if you believe that one person should he killed because he killed a white person, while another lives just because he killed a black person, or that a poor man is sentenced to death because he was appointed a incompetent lawyer, that's your opinion and you have the right to have it. Were not talking about the whole justice system here Sava, were talking capital punishment. Do you really think some body's life should be taken from them on the basis of arbitrary decisions.