The Death Penalty

[Sava]

Originally posted by Oerdin


There'd be a lot more dead cops. If you were a criminal who would be summarily executed why surrender? Better to try to shoot your way out or at least go down fighting.

no... fear would stop them from doing this!

I AM TEH LAW!!!

[Sava]

Originally posted by Cyclotron
Vengeance is mine, not Sava's, sayeth the lord

that's why I say we send them to God so he can deal with them


seriously though...

to people opposed to death penalty:

what is the purpose of locking violent murderers up for decades? can anyone explain this to me?

in prison, these people can victimize more people... they can still have access to drugs... I mean... there is no good that comes from locking them up for the remainder of their life...

just execute them...

[Cyclotron]

Originally posted by Sava
to people opposed to death penalty:

what is the purpose of locking violent murderers up for decades? can anyone explain this to me?

1) If it turns out they are innocent (evidence comes around later), there is still a chance to give them some of their life back.
2) It saves money. I have heard many times that it is cheaper to put someone in prison for life than go through death row legal hurdles. I do not currently have a source, however.

in prison, these people can victimize more people... they can still have access to drugs... I mean... there is no good that comes from locking them up for the remainder of their life...

Your assumption is that everybody sent to death row is guilty. I, unfortunately, do not share your enthusiastic view of a perfect US justice system; there have been documented instances where somebody in prison for life was exonerated decades later. What if we had executed them in that time? We would have put an innocent man to death.

For me, even the slightest chance that we could be killing an innocent person makes the whole issue a no-go.

Let me flip the question: Can you explain why the death penalty makes our justice system any more just, excluding the reason of vengeance you mentioned earler?

[SlowwHand]

I already dealt with the vengeance question earlier, but realizing some will just pop in and start gabbing...

The death penalty isn't about vengeance, as pertains to the Bible. The death penalty is punishment.
Sava noted this also.

Terra, we're talking murder, not constantly leaving an empty milk carton in the fridge.
You habitually leave that carton in the fridge and quit doing it, no one's the worse.
You habitually do violent crime, I don't care if you say you'll stop. It's too little, too late and you're sorry you got caught, not sorry you habitually did it.

[Lorizael]

Originally posted by Terra Nullius

Would you care to elaborate?

I could not, in a short amount of time, explain my stance in a way that would not just produce more argument.

[Cyclotron]

Originally posted by SlowwHand
The death penalty isn't about vengeance, as pertains to the Bible. The death penalty is punishment.
Sava noted this also.

I suppose I differ from that in that I view enforcement and punishment from a society-first standpoint - I don't see how it benefits society any more to have a person executed than to have them in prison for life. In my view, the function of the justice system should be to protect people, and the death penalty, IMO, does not protect people any better than life imprisonment.

You could say that the punishment needs to fit the crime, but the decision that execution fits a certain crime will always be an arbitrary one. There's nothing set in stone that makes execution "fit" the particular act, so in the end to ask that punishments "fit the crime" is just a subjective judgement. That, to me, seems too nebulous to base a system of justice off of.

[SlowwHand]

You don't understand because you don't read and therefore don't consider what's been said.

If you want to get down to brass tacks, it actually makes less sense to lock someone up for life with no hope of parole.
How do you punish them after that?
They would be stupid to not try and escape, whether they kill someone or not while escaping.
Let's say they don't. Adding 5 years to mandatory life means zip.
Let's say they do. What are you going to do, take away their birthday?

[Cyclotron]

Originally posted by SlowwHand
If you want to get down to brass tacks, it actually makes less sense to lock someone up for life with no hope of parole.
How do you punish them after that?

There is no need for punishment "after that." You have already removed them from society.

They would be stupid to not try and escape, whether they kill someone or not while escaping.

The same can easily be said about criminals who are on death row, some of whom remain on death row for many years.

[SlowwHand]

They remain on death row for many years pending all the costly appeals processes,
Already addressed that point. Again.

Removed from society?
Did you happen to see a thread float by about an escape recently here in Texas?
Oh yes he was removed from society. Only now, he's out and anyone that knows him is wetting their pants.

The biggest single legislation that reduced violent attacks, was the passage giving right to carry concealed weapons after licensing and training.

[Cyclotron]

Originally posted by SlowwHand
Removed from society?
Did you happen to see a thread float by about an escape recently here in Texas?
Oh yes he was removed from society. Only now, he's out and anyone that knows him is wetting their pants.

First of all, it is equally likely that someone on death row would try and escape.

Secondly, the obvious solution to prisoners escaping is to make prisons more secure, not the death penalty.

The biggest single legislation that reduced violent attacks, was the passage giving right to carry concealed weapons after licensing and training.

This is nice, but irrelevant.

[ajbera]

Fo the longest time, incarceration wasn't a punishment in and of itself. It merely served as a place to put the accused until tried, and then appropriate punishment was meted out (fines, beatings, humiliation, disfigurement, death.) Somewhere along the line it became acceptable for imprisonment to be the actual punishment. So some questions are: how much of an actual punishment is imprisonment? Are the rapes and abuse suffered in prison acceptable (as in "it fits the crime", and as in "should we as a society allow this") punishment? What are acceptable measures to ensure an imprisoned felon does not escape? What are acceptable measures to ensure an imprisoned felon does not prey on anyone else (in prison or out)? Why is it cruel to keep prisoners in perpetual solitary if their socialization with other prisoners or access to mail allows them to prey on others?

Capital punishment is one of those things I support, with reservations, but which I often question the logic and wisdom of it. Same as abortion.

[SlowwHand]

How is it irrelevant? You speak of deterrance, but when I bring up what deters it, now it's irrelevant?

Just go away, hell.

[Sava]

Originally posted by Cyclotron


1) If it turns out they are innocent (evidence comes around later), there is still a chance to give them some of their life back.
2) It saves money. I have heard many times that it is cheaper to put someone in prison for life than go through death row legal hurdles. I do not currently have a source, however.



Your assumption is that everybody sent to death row is guilty. I, unfortunately, do not share your enthusiastic view of a perfect US justice system; there have been documented instances where somebody in prison for life was exonerated decades later. What if we had executed them in that time? We would have put an innocent man to death.

For me, even the slightest chance that we could be killing an innocent person makes the whole issue a no-go.

Let me flip the question: Can you explain why the death penalty makes our justice system any more just, excluding the reason of vengeance you mentioned earler?

well, I've shared my concerns about wrongly convicting people...

however, with DNA evidence and such nowadays, I believe this is less of an issue... it should be noted that many of the people that have been released have been released due to DNA evidence proving their innocence...

but still, death penalty or not, people can still be wrongly convicted... and the death penalty is usually not carried out for many years, leaving ample time for appeals and such... I don't doubt that innocent people have been put to death, but I believe it is possible to fix the problems in the system, rather than to throw the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak.

And as Sloww has pointed out, DP is not about vengeance... it is about punishment.

[Imran Siddiqui]

[q=ajbera]Are the rapes and abuse suffered in prison acceptable (as in "it fits the crime", and as in "should we as a society allow this") punishment?[/q]

Indeed. It seems that prison guards ignore rapes and other abuses while locked up. I'd imagine those with more violent tendancies would take advantage of such a situation (they end up being the top dog in that sort of society). This is why sometimes you send a guy away for battery for a year and he comes out worse than when he went in.

[SlowwHand]

Send them in for child molestation and they may not come out at all.
Kind of a death penalty, wouldn't you say?