"MSN" is dead; Long Live "Windows Live"

[Asher]

Originally posted by BlackCat
Glad to see that you entered my trap (oh, and Asher did the same) What if it was an error that I started the application ? Can I regret it ? No, I have to start in "work offline" and when it complains that I dont have an offline environment (wich I have to click Ok to) I get the chance to leave the program. It's a classic example of poor design of user interaction.

Actually, no, no it's not.

You should never have more than 3 buttons per popup dialog box, it's one of those rules in HCI. When you get 4+ buttons it starts getting cluttered and usability actually begins to falter.

If you didn't want to start the application to begin with, you shouldn't have started it. In this case, just click Work Offline and then close it.

This isn't a clever trap you laid, it's a contrived, incorrect example of what you believe should be proper HCI, but isn't in the real world.

[Asher]

Originally posted by BlackCat
You dont read well - I said I took over such a program - meaning we got the source code from another company and I had the unpleasentness of making it work sensible without rewriting it from scratch.

And yes, there are more advanced languages such as c and c++ wich is my normal tools.

Do you know how to actually use them? Do you use templates in C++?

What widget API do you use when developing on Linux, and why is it less of a headache than Win32?

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by Asher

Apparently.

I smell your sarcasm, unfortunately I don't buy it. From what you've posted here I'd put you on the level of competence and understanding of a Jr. High programming geek, and that's about it.

You don't understand the importance of online applications -- instead thinking this has something to do with Linux -- and then you made a comment about development on Linux being less of a headache than on Windows.

To back up your arguments about MS quality you talked about BSODs (snore; old school) and VB (are you for real?)

At least you caught that there was a small hint of sarcasm an irony - not bad

If you don't think that I have any understanding of the importance of online applications, then I have to dissapoint you seriously. That actually is my work - both deliver effective and fast user apps and ditto server systems - and that to users that get annoyed when a "a?" query on unqualified terms takes more than 2 secs

[Asher]

I'm not talking about online applications as in internet connectivity.

I'm talking about internet applications that run through a web browser with a desktop-like interface. And I doubt you're doing any of that, nor do you understand what's going on here.

MS making an "Live" version of Office has nothing to do with Linux. In fact, it makes it possible to run Office using any OS as long as it has a web browser - Linux, MacOS X, and Windows can all use Office Live.

It has nothing to do with competition with Linux, and everything to do with companies like Google and, to a lesser extent, Yahoo. They are pushing traditionally desktop applications onto the web, making them platform independent.

The key here is platform independencies. Someone who thinks platform indepedencies has anything to do with Linux clearly is missing the whole point of this, and has nothing of value to contribute to a discussion on it.

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by Whaleboy


So in that case you have to go through one more window than you probably could in order to get out of the application.

OMFG!!! The Windows interface is so terribly designed! It makes it impossible to use!

Didn't say it was impossible to use - just said it was poor design.

If you ever get involved in userinteraction programming, this will be a good thing to remember. You are of course right that you just have to choose work-offline and then drop the session, but belive me, there are millions of users out there that will panic and can't figure out what to do and it's those people that you need to adress when you make your design - not the nerds such as you and me.

[Asher]

Originally posted by BlackCat
Didn't say it was impossible to use - just said it was poor design.

If you ever get involved in userinteraction programming, this will be a good thing to remember. You are of course right that you just have to choose work-offline and then drop the session, but belive me, there are millions of users out there that will panic and can't figure out what to do and it's those people that you need to adress when you make your design - not the nerds such as you and me.

As someone who has taken several courses now in HCI, instructed by PhDs who research the field, I don't see what the hell you're talking about.

It is not good HCI to have a button for every possible user action. If, as you say, they can't figure out what to do...that would be why the "Help" button is there.

If we had things your way the dialog would be a mess of different buttons for every possible usecase.

That would be an exceptionally poor interface.

Some of the worst interfaces in history are the overly busy ones. The reason why Apple is getting lots of accolades for ease of use is they minimize the amount of buttons on the screen, which is the right direction.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Asher
I smell your sarcasm, unfortunately I don't buy it. From what you've posted here I'd put you on the level of competence and understanding of a Jr. High programming geek, and that's about it.

Hey!

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by Asher
I'm not talking about online applications as in internet connectivity.

I'm talking about internet applications that run through a web browser with a desktop-like interface. And I doubt you're doing any of that, nor do you understand what's going on here.

I talk about both. I both make thick decentral applications and web based solutions. Some years ago I even build the nessecary Apache's my self but now has people doing it

MS making an "Live" version of Office has nothing to do with Linux. In fact, it makes it possible to run Office using any OS as long as it has a web browser - Linux, MacOS X, and Windows can all use Office Live.

It has nothing to do with competition with Linux, and everything to do with companies like Google and, to a lesser extent, Yahoo. They are pushing traditionally desktop applications onto the web, making them platform independent.

The key here is platform independencies. Someone who thinks platform indepedencies has anything to do with Linux clearly is missing the whole point of this, and has nothing of value to contribute to a discussion on it.

You are quite funny. You claim that all MS offers is an opportunity to tun office independent of own OS and claim that it has nothing to do with what OS you are running - considering the MS lack of compability with the rest of the world, I guess that it will perform best when using a MS browser.

The very last thought I have when MS starts a new service is that it is compatible and confers to standards. It will be fine if they do it some day, but I can't imagine that they will do it in a foreseeable future.

[Asher]

People said the same thing when .NET debuted, but here we are with actively maintained .NET runtimes for Mac and Linux.

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by Asher

As someone who has taken several courses now in HCI, instructed by PhDs who research the field, I don't see what the hell you're talking about.

It is not good HCI to have a button for every possible user action. If, as you say, they can't figure out what to do...that would be why the "Help" button is there.

If we had things your way the dialog would be a mess of different buttons for every possible usecase.

That would be an exceptionally poor interface.

Some of the worst interfaces in history are the overly busy ones. The reason why Apple is getting lots of accolades for ease of use is they minimize the amount of buttons on the screen, which is the right direction.

This actually gets funnier as the ansers roll in

I'll say that you either has slept well in those classes or that your teachers isn't worth their pay.

Do you really think that it's overkill that a user have an "abort" choice in starting outlook without server connection ?

Well, what about that really annoying question about "The SQL server xxx is not known to be running. Are you sure you wish to connect?" message in SQL server Enterprise manager ? Do you think that is a sane question to ask when you deliberatedely has clicked on a server ? Oh, and here we are not talking about some uneducated standard user - we are talking about someone who knows what is happening.

I read you as you have never tried to make a user interface, so I'll excuse your lack of knowledgede, and I'll feel sorry for those poor teachers that have teached you in this when you turn your wrath against them when you discovers that your knowledgede isn't worth sh!t .

[Asher]

Do you really think that it's overkill that a user have an "abort" choice in starting outlook without server connection ?

I don't think it's overkill for them to select Work Offline and then close.

It's not one of the more popular choices, it shouldn't be on there.

No offense, but I'm calling into question your credentials. You've flopped around this thread remarkably stupidly, with the main point whizzing by you at the speed of light, and now you're whining incessantly about why there isn't an "abort" button for when Outlook fails to connect to the server, because it's so unfriendly to select Work Offline and then click the X in the corner...

You've also made references about VB and ignored my questions about anything more complex, which smells a lot to me like you don't know sh*t about what you're talking about. If the Library techies and developers are as competent in Denmark as they are in Canada, you're way out of your league.

[Asher]

Why isn't there an abort button in any internet browser when it fails to connect to the internet?

[Ninot]

Originally posted by Verto


What was the last Microsoft product you bought?

I payed for my copy of XP.

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by Asher

I don't think it's overkill for them to select Work Offline and then close.

It's not one of the more popular choices, it shouldn't be on there.

And thats why you probably will experience some angry users unless, of course, you get to work with a company such as MS.

No offense, but I'm calling into question your credentials. You've flopped around this thread remarkably stupidly, with the main point whizzing by you at the speed of light, and now you're whining incessantly about why there isn't an "abort" button for when Outlook fails to connect to the server, because it's so unfriendly to select Work Offline and then click the X in the corner...

That is pure BS. I was asked about what I meant about poor design and you weren't able to catch the flaw but kept on whining about that users just could choose "offline" - that was what really showed that you don't have any kind of knowledge of userinteraction.

You've also made references about VB and ignored my questions about anything more complex, which smells a lot to me like you don't know sh*t about what you're talking about. If the Library techies and developers are as competent in Denmark as they are in Canada, you're way out of your league.

Funny enough, canada has been a mighty competitor in library systems, but it's quite a long time since I last heard of them. They may still be in the market, but not as a major player as earlier.

About tools - well, you clearly doesn't have an idea of what you are talking about. You seems to think that quality is a question about what kind of how you do things - I can gurantee you that my use of vi and cscope is just as effective as any kind of graphical tool - I often has the advantage that I know what I'm doing .

[Asher]

I didn't know you were talking about just the development tools.

Even then, the vast majority of the developers would disagree with you. Visual Studio is hands-down the best IDE out there, most developers would agree.

Actually, just yesterday, Dean Calver (who is a moderately famous game developer, and has published many books on it) made a blog post about having to use gcc and Linux-environments to develop for the PS3 versus using Windows and Visual C++ to develop for Xbox 360:

http://rattie.demon.co.uk/?p=32

Fundementally its bloody hard to program for next gen consoles, on PS3 you have lots of tasks because of the hardware design with all the headaches of concurrent programing (synchronisation, seperate memory pools, etc). X360 is a little easier, partly because its got fewer hardware threads and that they are symetrical, but also because its got MS Visual Studio compilers for it, OpenMP makes it easier to create worker tasks to distrubute across hardware threads. Now for this generation, Cell isn’t too complex, so doing all the thread in a manner similar to Herb’s WindowAPI example (near the end of that presentation) is okay (obviously PS3 doesn’t use Windows API, it uses CellOS API calls that do a similar thing) but what happens when we get hardware threads in double figures?
If a future console was to have 30+ hardware threads, the winner of that generation won’t be who has the most flops but who can write a compiler that helps you out. I’m don’t believe it will ever be ‘automatic’ (at least for the foreseeable future) but being able to add ‘active’ to a class etc. would be a god send.

MS have a real ace up there sleave with Visual C++, GCC just isn’t upto the same level at the moment. I bet the size of MS Visual C++ team is bigger than all the paid GCC contributors put together…

If I were Apple or Sony, I’d start spending serious cash on compiler research very very soon, else MS might just win the future of IT by being the only people able to supply the tools capable of using future processors…

But of course, you develop state-of-the-art Danish Library systems. You probably know all about the headaches of developing real software on all of the OSes.