Iranian President makes clear why Iran would be a responsible nuclear power

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Last Conformist
It's a hell alot more rational than offing American Jews ...

You mean more rational than offing Jews in America. American Jews have been offed by terrorists in Israel.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Last Conformist
No they haven't. They've been at least as messed up as monarchies, republics, and democracies.

Which have all been rational actors throughout history. States usually are not irrational. There may be a few exceptions here and there, but the vast majority act rationally.

I think the only country in the world today that you may be able to make an argument that they aren't a rational actor is North Korea, and even then, I think it may fail.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
And this matters because? A rational actor doesn't stop being rational because they have a bigger bomb. The nuke didn't change the USSR and USA from rational actors to non-rational actors.

The main reason why the US didn't use the bomb during the time of "invulnerability" was Truman's personality.

No nuclear power has felt "invulnerable" since then, because no nuclear power feels sheltered from the other's bombs.

If the big guy in charge is confident that "God will protect him" or something like that, he has no reason to fear MAD, the only actual reason why nukes aren't used. And if the big guy also intends to utterly destroy a country (which is quite a real item when you're a Muslim fanatic, as the OP shows), there is no reason he shows restraint.

I really wouldn't trust such people with nukes.

[lord of the mark]

Spiff, Im afraid youre running into International Relations Theory. If you thought certain major religions had the potential for dogmatism, you "aint seen nothing" as we say.

[Last Conformist]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


You mean more rational than offing Jews in America. American Jews have been offed by terrorists in Israel.

No, I meant what I said. Offing American Jews is dumber than than offing Argentine ones since America is more likely to meaningfully retaliate.

[Last Conformist]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui


Which have all been rational actors throughout history. States usually are not irrational. There may be a few exceptions here and there, but the vast majority act rationally.

No they don't. They act contrarily to their own interests on a regular basis.

I think the only country in the world today that you may be able to make an argument that they aren't a rational actor is North Korea, and even then, I think it may fail.

No country is a rational actor.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Last Conformist

No, I meant what I said. Offing American Jews is dumber than than offing Argentine ones since America is more likely to meaningfully retaliate.

September 29, 2000. near Jerusalem Israel. Attack on motorists. U.S. citizens injured: Avi Herman of Teaneck, NJ, Naomi Herman of Teaneck, NJ.

September 29, 2000, Jerusalem, Israel. Attack on taxi passengers. U.S. citizens injured: Tuvia Grossman of Chicago, Todd Pollack of Norfolk, VA, Andrew Feibusch of New York.

October 4, 2000, near Bethlehem, West Bank. U.S. citizens injured: An unidentified American tourist.

October 5, 2000: near Jerusalem, Israel. Attack on a motorist. U.S. citizens injured: Rabbi Chaim Brovender of Brooklyn.


October 30, 2000, Jerusalem, Israel. Gunmen killed Eish Kodesh Gilmor, a 25-year-old American-Israeli on duty as a security guard at the National Insurance Institute in Jerusalem. The "Martyrs of the Al-Aqsa Intifada," a group linked to Fatah, claimed responsibility for the attack. Gilmor's family filed a suit in the U.S. District Court in Washington against the Palestinian Authority, the PLO, Chairman Yasser Arafat and members of Force 17, as being responsible for the attack.

March 28, 2001, Neve Yamin. Bombing at bus stop. U.S. citizens injured: Netanel Herskovitz, 15, formerly of Hempstead, NY.

May 9, 2001, Tekoa, West Bank. Kobi Mandell, 13, of Silver Spring, MD, an American-Israeli, was found stoned to death along with a friend in a cave near the Jewish settlement of Tekoa. Two organizations, the Islamic Jihad and Hizballah-Palestine, claimed responsibility for the attack.



August 9, 2001, Jerusalem, Israel. A suicide bombing at Sbarro's, a pizzeria situated in one of the busiest areas of downtown Jerusalem, killed 15 people and wounded more than 90. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack. U.S. citizens killed: Judith L. Greenbaum, 31, of New Jersey and California, Malka Roth, 15, whose family was from New York. U.S. citizens injured: David Danzig, 21, of Wynnewood, PA, Matthew P. Gordon, 25, of New York, Joanne (Chana) Nachenberg, 31, Sara Shifra Nachenberg, 2.

August 18, 2001, Jerusalem, Israel. Shooting at a bus. U.S. citizen injured: Andrew Feibusch of New York.

August 27, 2001, near Roglit, Israel. Shooting attack. U.S. citizen injured: Ben Dansker.

November 4, 2001, Jerusalem, Israel. Shoshana Ben-Yishai, 16, of Queens, NY was killed in a shooting at a bus station. U.S. citizen injured: Shlomo Kaye.

December 2, 2001, Jerusalem, Israel. Bombing on Ben-Yehuda Street, Jerusalem. U.S. citizens injured: Ziv Brill, 17, of West Hempstead, Long Island, NY, Temima Spetner, 19, of St. Louis, MI, Jason Kirshenbaum of New Rochelle, NY, Israel Hirschfield, 18, Joseph Leifer, 29, of Borough Park (Brooklyn), NY.

December 18, 2001, shooting on the Jerusalem-Shilo road. U.S. citizens injured: David Rubin, 44, of Brooklyn, NY, Asher "Ruby" Rubin, 3.

January 18, 2002: Shooting in Hadera. U.S. citizen killed: Aaron Elis, 32, son of Chicago family.

January 22, 2002: Shooting in Jerusalem, Israel. U.S. citizen injured: Shayna Gould, 19, of Chicago, IL

January 27, 2002, Jerusalem, Israel. A Palestinian woman triggered a massive explosion in downtown Jerusalem killing one elderly Israeli and injuring more than 150, including American Mark Sokolow, his wife, and 16 and 12-year-old daughters. Sokolow had earlier survived the September 11 attack on the World Trade Center, escaping from his law office on the 38th floor of the South Tower before it collapsed.

February 16, 2002: Bombing in Karnei Shomron. U.S. citizens killed: Keren Shatsky, 14, of Brooklyn, NY and Maine, Rachel Thaler, 16, of Baltimore, MD. U.S. citizens injured: Lior Thaler, 14, of Baltimore, MD, Hillel Trattner of Chicago, IL, Ronit Yucht Trattner of Chicago, IL, Chani Friedman of New York.

February 19, 2002: Shooting near Neve Dekalim. U.S. citizens injured: Moshe Saperstein of New York.

February 25, 2002, Jerusalem, Israel. Moran Amit, 25, was stabbed to death in Abu Tor Peace Forest in Jerusalem.

March 7, 2002, Eshel Hashomron Hotel, Ariel, Israel. A Christian tourist from Arkansas lost her right eye in an attack by a suicide bomber.

March 27, 2002, Netanya, Israel. U.S. citizen Hannah Rogen, 90, was killed in a suicide attack at a Passover Seder.

June 18, 2002, Jerusalem, Israel. Moshe Gottlieb, 70, of Los Angeles, CA was killed in a bus bombing in Jerusalem.


July 31, 2002, Hebrew University, Jerusalem, Israel. Nine people were killed when a bomb exploded in the main cafeteria at the Hebrew University's Mount Scopus campus in Jerusalem. Five were U.S. citizens: Janis Ruth Coulter, 36, of MA; Marla Bennet, 24, of San Diego, CA; David Gritz (also a French citizen), 24, of Peru, MA; Benjamin Blutstein, 25, of Susquehanna Township, PA; and Dina Carter, 37, of NC. Israelis David Ladovsky, 29, and Levina Shapira, 53 also died in the bombing. U.S. citizens injured: Spencer Dew, 26, of Owensboro, Kentucky; Zeev Spencer; Harris Gershon; Jamie Harris. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.


March 7, 2003: Shooting in the victims’ home. U.S. citizens killed: Rabbi Eli Horowitz, 52, who grew up in Chicago; Dina Horowitz, 50, who grew up in Florida

April 30, 2003: Bombing at a Tel Aviv pub. U.S. citizens injured: Jack Baxter, 50, of New York City.

June 11, 2003: Bus bombing in Jerusalem. U.S. citizens killed: Alan Beer, 47, who grew up in Cleveland. U.S. citizens injured: Sarri Singer, 27, daughter of New Jersey State Senator Robert Singer.

June 20, 2003: Shooting attack on a car driving through the West Bank. U.S. citizens killed: Tzvi Goldstein, 47, who grew up in New York; U.S. citizens injured: Eugene Goldstein, Tzvi’s father, of Long Island, New York; Lorraine Goldstein, Tzvi’s mother, of Long Island, New York; Michal Goldstein, Tzvi’s wife, who grew up in New York.

August 19, 2003: Homicide bombing on a bus in Jerusalem. U.S. citizens killed: Goldie Taubenfeld, 43, of New Square, New York; Shmuel Taubenfeld, 3 months, of New Square, New York; Mordechai Reinitz, 49; Yitzhak Reinitz, 9. Tehilla Nathanson, 3, of Monsey, New York; U.S. citizens injured: Mendel Reinitz, 11.

September 9, 2003: Homicide bombing at a cafe in Jerusalem. David Applebaum, 51, and his daughter Nava, 20, originally of Cleveland were killed.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Spiffor

It's a frigging theocracy, where the likeliness of a religious fanatic coming to supreme power is extremely high.

Religious fanatics tend not to be rational you know. If the fanatic believes that Allah will protect him and his people from the infidels' bobs, all hell will break loose.

Generally speaking, it is very bad that nukes fall into the hands of countries where so much power can be held by one person without any checks and balances. Because that person, being a mere human, might well turn out to be a delusional crazy.

Theocracies are especially prone to it.

What are you talking about?

Care to give me a SINGLE example of this innate irrationality of theocracies?

The Iranian regmie has been in power for 25 years now. The same crap was said about the Bolsheviks when they came to power- irrational fanatics, and maybe in the early days they, like Khomeini, had irration faith in their ideology. But the revolutionary fervor left, and so it has in Iran.

An inherently irrational regime does not last 25 years in an unfriendly neighborhood. Iran's regime might be a clerical regime, but its behavior is no more irrational than a non-clerical autocracy.

[Last Conformist]

"Homicide bombing"? As opposed to gallicide bombing?

I'm not sure I see your point. That the risk in killing American Jews is small? That doesn't mean it isn't larger than that in killing Argentine ones.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Spiffor

The main reason why the US didn't use the bomb during the time of "invulnerability" was Truman's personality.

No nuclear power has felt "invulnerable" since then, because no nuclear power feels sheltered from the other's bombs.

If the big guy in charge is confident that "God will protect him" or something like that, he has no reason to fear MAD, the only actual reason why nukes aren't used. And if the big guy also intends to utterly destroy a country (which is quite a real item when you're a Muslim fanatic, as the OP shows), there is no reason he shows restraint.

I really wouldn't trust such people with nukes.

Except that you have no evidence that Khameini, who is the leader of Iran, realistically believes such nonsense. And it is Khameini, not Ahmadinejad that controls the country, and certainly the military.

Ahmadinejad is not even a cleric. One does not become a high Shiite cleric by being an irrational fool. Khomeini might have been radical, but he was certainly not irrational.

[lord of the mark]

theres a difference between being irrational and being a fool. You dont get to be a high shiite cleric by being a fool, nor do you get to lead Germany, or the Soviet Union, or China. You may very well be irrational on a particular issue that causes you to make a criticical misjudgement.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by GePap


Except that you have no evidence that Khameini, who is the leader of Iran, realistically believes such nonsense. And it is Khameini, not Ahmadinejad that controls the country, and certainly the military.

Ahmadinejad is not even a cleric. One does not become a high Shiite cleric by being an irrational fool. Khomeini might have been radical, but he was certainly not irrational.

I think its widely beleived that the Mullahs put Ahmadinejad in power. Do you have evidence that hes saying things the Mullahs dont want him to say?

[The Mad Viking]

Originally posted by Last Conformist
So, according to you, Iran sponsors terrorism not because it furthers their goals, but because they're spiteful? I rather doubt that.

Huh?

While the Bush administration does tend to blame spite (envy) for all terrorism, I think that is the opposite of what I said.

I said that once their words were backed with nuclear ****ing weapons, people would take them into account, and terrorism would NO LONGER further their goals.

[The Mad Viking]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by lord of the mark

Originally posted by The Mad Viking

If Afganistan was a nuclear power, it would never have been a pawn in US-Soviet relations, and never would have become a breeding ground for terrorists.

Al Qaeeda moved from Sudan to Afghanistan AFTER the USSR ceased to exist, and the US turned away from the region.

The mujaheeden were not a product of US-USSR conflict? Who trained them, and to fight whom?

This whole notion of

terrorist sponser + nuclear capabilty = nuclear terrorist

is completely false.

Groups resort to terrorism when they have been dismissed by those with power.

When Iran becomes a nuclear power, they will have a seat at the table, and people will listen, and they won't have the time or interest in blowing up buses.

Odd, then, that the USSR supported terrorists while possesing a vast nuclear arsenal.

This is a good point. The US also supports terrorists, I suppose. (e.g. Contras) But neither against each other; and neither became nuclear terrorists despite supporting terrorism. Terrorism was/is used by nuclear powers only in struggles for control of pawn-nations.

Deterrence works.

[GePap]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
I think its widely beleived that the Mullahs put Ahmadinejad in power. Do you have evidence that hes saying things the Mullahs dont want him to say?

Which is irrelevant BECAUSE HE ISN'T A MULLAH.

And last time I checked, it was the Iranian public that put him there. While the moderates might not have had a real candidate, Rasafanjani (a mullah himself) was a viable candidate, and the security forces backed one of their ex-leaders.

If you got problems, take it up with the Iranian poor who placed on of their own in the Presidency.

And again, its Khameini and his circle that control the country.