China Crisis: threat to the global environment

[DinoDoc]

Being a proper dictatorship and cracking down on its people that threaten the health of the regime rather than just ignoring them and hope they go away would be a good start: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...hreadid=165654

[DaShi]

Originally posted by Tingkai
You're living in a dream world where you expect a developing country to do what developed countries have not done. You expect results with a snap of a finger.

Even worse, you offer no real solutions, just empty hate-filled talk. Prove me wrong. Provide some viable ways that China could reduce pollution.

But of course you won't because we all know that for you this isn't about pollution. It is just another excuse for you to spew your hated of China.

You really need to come to terms with what happened in Hangzhou or else your hate will eat you like a cancer.

Wow, so this is civil discourse with you. For the record I had a great time in China. I'm even planning to go back to help with the very problems I've discussed ont these forums. However, one thing I didn't do in China was bury my head in the ground everytime I saw something that was simply wrong.

Your problem is that you can't handle China having any criticism. Any! It's insane the way you react to it. Look at what you just wrote.

As for viable ways for China to reduce pollution, it would require some sacrifice. But perhaps the most important thing they could do is simply to try to stop things from getting worse. Don't allow new heavy pollutiing factories to be built. Reduce use of coal power and stop building new coal plants. Basically, make an effort and enforce all those laws they passed with such celebrity but are forgotten today. If China was making an effort, things shouldn't be getting so bad so quickly.

To simply ignore it as you do is wrong and irresponsible. Perhaps then, the biggest thing China could do is acknowledge that there is major problem and show some outrage about it. The rest of us sure aren't happy with it.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by DaShi
I'm even planning to go back to help with the very problems I've discussed ont these forums.

That says a lot about how you view the Chinese. Ready to carry the white man's burden, eh. How colonial of ya.

Before we start planning your parade, what valuable skills can you offer China? Are you an engineer, scientist or a doctor?

Do you just plan to walk into the Politburo offices and tell them to stop being so nasty? Is it going to be a super-hero's crusade to save China where you just snap your fingers and all is solved?

Or do you figure that just because you're American they will be kowtowing before your superior wisdom.

Please do tell.

Originally posted by DaShi
As for viable ways for China to reduce pollution, it would require some sacrifice. But perhaps the most important thing they could do is simply to try to stop things from getting worse. Don't allow new heavy pollutiing factories to be built. Reduce use of coal power and stop building new coal plants.

This is a prime example of the type of mindless response that I'm complaining about. Think about what you're writing before you post it.

Your solution is for China to shut down its economy. Yeah, that's realistic.

You want to them to stop building coal-burning power plants, but what do you suggest they do instead for electricity. Build hydro dams? Lots of complaints about that approach. Nuclear plant? Not a good idea in China given the quality of construction there. What's your solution?

Originally posted by DaShi
Basically, make an effort and enforce all those laws they passed with such celebrity but are forgotten today. If China was making an effort, things shouldn't be getting so bad so quickly.

Again, you fail to understand the complexities of China. To enforce the laws, they need trained police, lawyers and an effective court system. They need environmental watch dogs. All of these people need to be trained and that won't happen overnight. It will take decades.

No one is saying that we should ignore the problems, but we need credible solutions. Saying "just do it" won't work.

[DaShi]

Originally posted by Tingkai
That says a lot about how you view the Chinese. Ready to carry the white man's burden, eh. How colonial of ya.

You're insane. No matter what I post you interpret it as anti-China. Yet you can provide no real evidence of it. You know nothing of my motivations or my background. All you're arguments are based on unfounded assumptions and percieved hostility.

Actually, my work regards disease treatment and control. In fact, I do the same work here in the US. I simply want to move my expertise to back to China because in part I'm a bit tired of the US and want to go somewhere where I feel I can make a greater difference. Also, I do like China, which is why I am often critical of it. But the country has been good to me, and I'd like to return the favor.

The arrogance is yours. Why are you in China?

This is a prime example of the type of mindless response that I'm complaining about. Think about what you're writing before you post it.

Your solution is for China to shut down its economy. Yeah, that's realistic.

No where did I say to shut down their economy. You accuse me of twisting words, but this is exaclty what you are doing. I swear it's crazy arguing with you. You accuse me of something with no evidence and then go and do the same thing yourself.

You want to them to stop building coal-burning power plants, but what do you suggest they do instead for electricity. Build hydro dams? Lots of complaints about that approach. Nuclear plant? Not a good idea in China given the quality of construction there. What's your solution?

I said China should reduce its reliance on coal power. One way to do this is to build other kinds of plants. China has nuclear power plants now and should invest in a few more. Do you really think that the Chinese are so lax in their construction that they wouldn't have safety regulations on nuclear power? And you accuse me of hating them.

My only complaint with Chinese construction has been the lack of energy efficiency in the buidings. Heck, even building cleaner coal plants would be a good step.

Again, you fail to understand the complexities of China. To enforce the laws, they need trained police, lawyers and an effective court system. They need environmental watch dogs. All of these people need to be trained and that won't happen overnight. It will take decades.

I'm well aware of that. You only assume that I'm not to fit your perverse image of me in you attempt at character assassination, since you can't form cogent arguments in a polite manner. No one here is asking for this to occur overnight. They are just asking for some action.

No one is saying that we should ignore the problems, but we need credible solutions. Saying "just do it" won't work.

No is saying just do it. Mostly what people want to see is some major efforts being made. The dramatic rise in emissions in China looks as if things are only getting worse. When China set such low goals for emission reduction and didn't meet them, it reflected badly on its committment to reduce pollution. Environmentalists are concerned and have a right to be. This doesn't mean that China is a bad country. Just that it has a major pollution problem that doesn't seem to be stemming at all.

You just take anything as an attack on China. I offer some solutions. Sure you could just say how they won't work and offer some alternatives. But you need to claim that my solutions are an attack on China. There is no rational discussion with you. You're filled with so many assumptions about how I think that it's impossible to talk to you. Yet, you can't provide any basis for these assumptions. How can anyone have a reasonable discussion with you, if by disagreeing with your percieved veiw of the world, they are labelled communi . . . Chinese haters.

[DaShi]

You know what Tingkai. Go ahead and post your biased views on China. I just realized that I'm the only one who is stupid enough to respond to your trolls. And frankly, I don't care what you think I think about China. Your own attitude shows that you don't think very highly of the Chinese yourself. And I suppose it's that disgusting arrogance that irritated me so much about you.

[Adam Smith]

We were in China for three weeks in June, and the pollution was MUCH worse than it was in the same places the same time of year ten years ago. In Beijing, bicycles were almost completely absent from the major streets and had been replaced by automobiles. Our guide said that this was the result of a conscious policy of the Chinese government to encourage the development of the domestic automobile industry. You could not see two blocks in any direction. Maybe not as bad as Donora, PA or a black fog in London, but pretty bad never the less.

The worst problem was in the basement of the Beijing West railway station. As we walked toward our departing train, everyone in our party was hacking, coughing, eyes watering, choking. I was certain they had left diesel locomotives idling in the enclosed space, until we got to the end of the platform and saw that all the locomotives were electric.

The water pollution was also very bad. The upper reaches of the Yangtze river were completely filthy, long before it reached population centers of any size. However, small ponds and tributaries in eastern China seemed to be somewhat better than I remember them 10 years ago.

Carbon dioxide emissions have also grown massively. Ten years ago, the cities of Changzhou and Wuxi (Jiangsu Province, near Shanghai) had one coal-fired electric power plant each. Now these cities, with a population of about a million each, plus another million itinerant workers each, have five full-sized 1,000MW power plants each, the kind you would find in any industrialized country.

I can understand China's desire to industrialize, but the global effects cannot be ignored.

edit: grammar

[DaShi]

Why do you hate China?

[MOBIUS]

Thank you Adam Smith for an excellent comparitive example of the effects of China's rampant industrialisation ten years on...

Only 378 days to go before the Olympics!

[Agathon]

No offence DaShi, but all your posts seem to be Sinophobic. I remember that time you blamed the breakup of the Beatles on Chinese perfidy.

What happened? Food poisoning from a bad won ton?

[MOBIUS]

Agathon, can you please refrain from your personal attacks.

[binTravkin]

If growth continues at 8 per cent a year, Mr Brown said, by 2031 China's population, likely to be 1.45 billion on current UN predictions, will have an income per person equivalent to that of the US today. He said: "China's grain consumption will then be two-thirds of the current grain consumption for the entire world. If it consumes oil at the same rate as the US today, the Chinese will be consuming 99 million barrels a day - and the whole world is currently producing 84 million barrels a day, and will probably not produce much more.

What makes her think chinese will go the american way - the who can eat the most and get obese first way?!

[binTravkin]

Btw why can't those chinese use nuclear energy to fuel their electricity needs?
If it doesn't meltdown, they have clean nice energy, if it does, the others will have less headache..

[DaShi]

Originally posted by Agathon
No offence DaShi, but all your posts seem to be Sinophobic. I remember that time you blamed the breakup of the Beatles on Chinese perfidy.

What happened? Food poisoning from a bad won ton?

No I don't remember that. I think you mean someone else. Unless I wrote it as a joke, but then you'd be a real ass to bring up outside of that context. But please point out one serious sinophobic post, if all of them are. Otherwise, don't act all high and mighty about Asher because you'll be no different from him (see LoTM and Jews).

[DaShi]

But seriously, I've never said as much about the problems of China as Adam Smith has in his post here. Not that there is anything wrong with him sharing his experiences. Nor have I so outlandishly attacked China as MOBIUS has. Yet, I'm constantly receiving personal attacks for having a rather moderate opinion on China from a few people for them. These same people who can provide no example of this so-called Sinophobia. I'm getting sick and tired of this slander. It's not my fault that the China-huggers are wrong.