CIA worked in tandem with Pakistan to create Taliban.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Oerdin
Mr. Fun, the Sandinistas weren't exactly nice people either. They had the habit of killing everyone who they thought didn't look poor enough or who they thought were to religious.

There are multiple examples of atrocities done by communist forces in different parts of the world, just as it was the case with anti-communist dictators backed by United States.

So I'm not denying what you just pointed out, Oerdin.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by vomitus
It's odd that people take so much pride in the deaths of a hundred million of people in the 20th century.

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/20TH.HTM

Capitalism killed far more. If the Commies killed 100 million in a century, and that makes us bad, what does it say about your side when you kill over a hundred million a decade?

[Dinner]

The one really dirty one was Nixon and Kissinger plotting against Salvador Allende in Chile. Allende was a new breed of hyper nationalistic socialists in South America who more then a little admired Castro and the USSR. Allende ordered all foreign owned business nationalized without compensation then when the US objected he started talking to the Soviets about building a base in Chile. Nixon was hopping mad and Kissinger kept talking about other Latin American countries following Allende's lead.

The result was Nixon ordered the CIA to find someone, anyone who would over throw Allende. That someone turned out to be Augusto Pinochet who wasn't a very nice man. In fact Pinochet lived by the theory that dead people can't oppose you so he went out to kill everyone whom he or his secet police suspected of being first communists then later socialists. The US didn't really like Pinochet after the coupe because of his blood thirstiness but Pinochet returned the businesses to their original owners and so the US left him alone to do as he pleased. That's really the worst cold war example of winning at all costs thinking.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Oerdin
Mr. Fun, the Sandinistas weren't exactly nice people either. They had the habit of killing everyone who they thought didn't look poor enough or who they thought were to religious.

Which is why they killed all of those priests in their government? Oh, right, they didn't. If you want priest killers, you need to go to El Salvador, our ally, which murdrered 70,000 of its own people.

The only human rights abuses that can be laid at the feet of the Sandanistas was the killing of Miskitos Indians, which occured because the Indians were living in a war zone and the government decided to relocate them. The Miskitos didn't want to go, so the Sandanistas used force, killing many. This drove the Indians into the arms of the Contras, and so the Sandanistas realized they made a mistake, tried the people responsible for the killings, etc.

Nor were rich people killed extrajudicially in Nicaragua (marking a change from the Somoza dictatorship, who killed anyone). The Somoza families holdings were nationalized, since it was all stolen anyway. Anyone who left the country had their property seized, but they weren't killed. The internal opposition was almost entirely led by the wealthy.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Oerdin
Allende ordered all foreign owned business nationalized without compensation then when the US objected he started talking to the Soviets about building a base in Chile.

That's rather a bit of an overstatement. Only certain industries were nationalized, such as copper, telecommunications, etc.

[Saras]

Originally posted by MrFun



I'm too lazy. And the fact that I see the bad on both sides makes me much less biased than the ubers of either side so no need to pounce on me.

fair enough lazy bones

[Saras]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


Capitalism killed far more. If the Commies killed 100 million in a century, and that makes us bad, what does it say about your side when you kill over a hundred million a decade?

I call BS.

[Sava]

Originally posted by Saras


I call BS.

then you would be wrong


hint: Africa is a good example of how capitalism kills


**I should note that I am not supporting command economies. The problem with these debates is that you have extremists on two sides sniping at each other. There needs to be balance. Market economics are good systems. But there needs to be rules, and they need to be enforced. There needs to be balance.

[Dinner]

Che, in addition to copper mining (the biggest industry in the country) he also nationalized banks, health care, telephones, utilities, etc... He also siezed most large ranches and farms and was in the process of giving it away to the landless when the coupe happened. Kinssinger was quoted as saying the US knew about the coupe in advance but that it didn't actually take part which is misleading since the CIA financed it and made sure Pinochet knew he'd recieve recognition as soon as the job was done.

The main problem was an internal one though. Allende's election in 1970 lead many companies to shy away from Chile due to fears of political instability. This caused copper producers to develop big new copper mines in other parts of the world resulting in the price of copper rapidly declining. Combined with Allende's nationalistic policies of high tarrifs and support for poorly run state owned industries the Chilean economy tanked. Hyper inflation and high unemployment were the rule.

The Chilean supreme court challenged Allende's nationalizations without compensation by saying it didn't pass legal muster since protection of property was in the Chilean constitution. Allende was going to call for a national vote for a new constitution but the coupe happened the day before the speech. Supposedly with the army surrounding the Presidential palace and with the soldiers attempting to break down his office door Allende shot himself in the head using a gold plated machine gun given to him by Castro. The machine gun's stock was engraved with "To my good friend Salvador Allende from Fidel Castro".

A messy affair all around.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Sava
hint: Africa is a good example of how capitalism kills

Sava, capitalism requires a rule of law. Most of the bloodshed in African wars is the result of ethnic conflicts in the absence of law. There basicly just armed thugs trying to kill each other for racial and ethnic reasons. Capitalism has little to do with it unless the super powers meddled.

[chequita guevara]

Whether or not Allende killed himself is a matter of debate, since we have only the golpistas word for it, and they are not to be trusted. The same goes for the gun. It's far more likely they executed him and planted the evidence.

Apparently, however, before Allende became President, he had been given rather large sums of money by the KGB. Since they did it through front groups, it is not clear that Allende knew who his benefactor was.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Oerdin
Sava, capitalism requires a rule of law.

Prefers is not the same thing as requires. Capitalism prefers the rule of law, but it is willing to do without it if it can get away with it or if it must.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Capitalism killed far more. If the Commies killed 100 million in a century, and that makes us bad, what does it say about your side when you kill over a hundred million a decade?

It would be hard to beat the great leap forward, Stalin's purges, the concentration camps in North Korea, the killing fields of Cambodia, and the post war "re-education" of South Vietnam. You can't really claim Hitler was a Capitalist either since he'd steal from rich and poor alike and instead was mainly into cronyism and absolute power. Anything prior to about 1750 would be pre-capitalism so there isn't to many great killings left.

[Saras]

Originally posted by Sava
hint: Africa is a good example of how capitalism kills

Oh, the free trade of goods and services, protection of property, that sort of thing, is deadly in hot climates? Wow!

[Sava]

Originally posted by Oerdin


Sava, capitalism requires a rule of law. Most of the bloodshed in African wars is the result of ethnic conflicts in the absence of law. There basicly just armed thugs trying to kill each other for racial and ethnic reasons. Capitalism has little to do with it unless the super powers meddled.

one can argue the political instability, the starvation, and rampant disease is a result of the economic situation...

which is a result of the abuse of neo-liberal economic policies...

also, look at the arms trade...

not too many weapons factories in Africa

more fuel for the fire...


it's ironic you were equating something UR was denying in the thread to holocaust denial when you are doing much the same thing here