Anyone actually think Chinas occupation of Tibet IS legitamite?

[GePap]

[SIZE=1] Originally posted by Brachy-Pride
Tibet

The Government of Tibet in Exile gives the number of non-Tibetans in Tibet as 7.5 million (as opposed to 6 million Tibetans), and considers this the result of an active policy of demographically swamping the Tibetan people and further diminishing any chances of Tibetan political independence, and as such, to be in violation of the Geneva Convention of 1946 that prohibits settlement by occupying powers. The Government of Tibet in Exile questions all statistics given by the PRC government, since they do not include members of the People's Liberation Army garrisoned in Tibet, or the large floating population of unregistered migrants.

Except that China is the legitimate ruling government, and hence not subject to those clauses of the Geneva convention.

And since when are communist supposed to be enamored by Nationalist arguements? After all, Tibetan identity is secondary to their identity as workers and so forth. Any government that replaces a backwards and supersticious agrarian society with a modern industrial society is doing the good work of history.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by notyoueither
A lot of the world cheered Ronnie, and earlier presidents, on as the war against leftists was waged between Cairo and Bogata.

That makes it right, according to you, che.

I never said it wasn't. We aim to destroy their way of life. I'd be surprised if they just said okay. I don't oppose the capitalists' right to fight back.

What I oppose is them being evil to people who are just trying to make their lives better through means which would be considered legal in the West, such as unioizing or electing whom they want.

[notyoueither]

Unionising and electing people while being encouraged by the KGB.

I don't think accepting money to organise from the KGB was ever considered kosher anywhere in the West.

[Barnabas]

The Chinese government is the worst "historical revisionist" nowadays in the whole world.

In the last year they have had serious problems with Korea and Mongolia first for claiming the kingdom of Koguryo as a chinese Kingdom, and second for claiming Genghis Khan as a Chinese Emperor.

"China drops claims to ancient Korean kingdom

IDENTITY: An ancient state which Koreans say was founded by their ancestors is now Chinese territory, but China's claims to it have angered Koreans

AFP , SEOUL
Wednesday, Aug 25, 2004,Page 5
South Korea and China have settled a row over an ancient kingdom that disappeared more than 1,000 years ago, officials said yesterday, mending a rift in the two countries' flourishing ties.

China agreed not to lay claim to the state of Koguryo, which straddled modern Manchuria from 57BC to 668AD, after both countries' officials reached a "verbal understanding," South Korean Foreign Minister Ban Ki-moon said.

Clash of cultures

Koreans believe their ancestors founded the kingdom, which is rich in archeological relics -- including priceless paintings on the murals of burial sites -- and regard it as part of their national identity.

But they were outraged earlier this year when a state-funded Chinese history project claimed that Koguryo was always part of China.

"China is mindful of the fact that the Koguryo question has emerged as a serious pending issue between the two countries," Ban said of the agreement, which was not put in writing.

The vaguely worded "understanding" did not specifically mention China's promise not to claim the kingdom as its history, but the two sides agreed to take it as meaning just that, another South Korean foreign ministry official said.

It also called for efforts to prevent the dispute from turning into a major political issue and to organize academic exchanges on the matter, the official said.

China, however, did not accept Seoul's demand that Beijing's foreign ministry restore deleted references to Koguryo from its Web site on Korean history.

In its heyday, Koguryo -- which is also known as Koryo, the origin of the name Korea -- encompassed much of what is now the border between China and North Korea.

It vanished after being conquered by China's Tang dynasty.

South Korean politicians were up in arms over the row, accusing the Chinese government of attempting to rob Koreans of one of the gems of their cultural heritage.

China's news media had also waded into the dispute, claiming that Koguryo was a provincial government of China under the central authority of Beijing.

However, the two sides have now agreed to make joint efforts to prevent the historical row undermining ties which have been developing fast since the establishment of diplomatic relations in 1992.

China was particularly concerned by the prospect of a reunified North and South Korea making claims on the area formerly covered by the ancient nation.

"Although this is not included in the points of understanding, China showed acute reactions to claims by some Korean politicians and scholars that the Chinese far-eastern provinces [that used to be Koguryo territory] should be returned to Korea," Ban said.

"China called for the [South Korean] government to restrain them," he added.

North Korea, which lovingly maintains Koguryo tombs and relics on its territory, has so far remained silent on the dispute with China, a key ally of the Stalinist state.

united in anger

The dispute is one of the few issues to unite ruling and opposition parties in South Korea at a time of deep divisions on key issues including North Korea, the lackluster economy and the US-led war in Iraq.

The accord on Monday came after China's newly appointed vice minister, Wu Dawei, flew to Seoul on Sunday for a series of meetings with South Korean officials."

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by notyoueither
Unionising and electing people while being encouraged by the KGB.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Brachy-Pride
The Chinese government is the worst "historical revisionist" nowadays in the whole world.

Relevence?

[Mr. Harley]

Then there are those of us who do not agree at all with the Roman derived Franco-British defined nation states going back to - pick a date, any date.

It is not hard to be consistant and opposed to:

1) The Chinese occupation and ethnicide in Tibet.

2) The creation of a Jewish State (versus a state with Jews and full and equal rights for all inhabitants) in Palestine.

3) The occupation policies on the West Bank.

4) The dozens of conflicts in Africa where a tribe was fragmented via artificial borders (why the French and English reference) and put under the rule of their traditional enemies who proceed to f*ck them over. One of the worst examples is the Belgian Congo, or what we now call Democratic Republic of Congo.

5) Indian dominance of border states in the Himalayas.

6) US refusal to grant groups like the Mohawk nation independence, and refusal to revisit the dozens of broken treaties made with Native Americans.

7) The creation of the artificial country of Indonesia where a small Muslim minority screws over several different ethnic and religious groups throughout it's borders.

I could go on and on, but that pretty much makes my point.

[DaShi]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger


Um, the Dalai Lama is a very bad person. Or at least was.

Really?

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
The guy had done some unspeakable things while he was Tibet's despot.

From UR's link:

Finally, it should be noted that the criticism posed herein is not intended as a personal attack on the Dalai Lama. Whatever his past associations with the CIA and various reactionaries, he speaks often of peace, love, and nonviolence. And he himself really cannot be blamed for the abuses of the ancien régime, having been but 15 years old when he fled into exile.

[DaShi]

Originally posted by GePap
Even on purely nationalistic terms, as Che already said, a significant portion of the population of Tibet, if not half or more, is Han Chinese already. That is not going to change.

Do you know why there are so many Han ( at the term) Chinese in Tibet today?

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by MrFun


Talk about bringing up a meaningless point of an entirely different caliber.

I wager you dollars to donuts that there are more smokers in Australia than there were landlords and the ruling class in Tibet.

[DaShi]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger


Facinating question.

The Dalai Lama was a bad person because evil actions were born out of bad intentions. OTOH, a strong case can be made that Mao meant well. It is just that he did not foresee some consequences of his actions.

See you own link and the Dalai Lama.

As for Mao, I don't see how any case can be made that he "meant well." He was a monster who killed his soldiers during regular "purges." Let's not forget that he knowingly allowed China's first nuclear missile to be tested by launching it over heavily populated areas, while he and the very scientists hid in safety, surely expecting something to go wrong. The only time Mao "meant well" was when he was passing governmental actions in an attempt to legitimize his leadership. And look how those turned out.

[DaShi]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger


I wager you dollars to donuts that there are more smokers in Australia than there were landlords and the ruling class in Tibet.

It's an interesting comparison. But again, you're analogy is entirely inaccurate.

[Flip McWho]

Aye UR a better analogy would of been the Aborigines in Aussie, smokers have absolutely nothing to do with anything.

[Dracon II]

The Government of Tibet in Exile gives the number of non-Tibetans in Tibet as 7.5 million (as opposed to 6 million Tibetans), and considers this the result of an active policy of demographically swamping the Tibetan people and further diminishing any chances of Tibetan political independence, and as such, to be in violation of the Geneva Convention of 1946 that prohibits settlement by occupying powers.

That is how the Han Chinese came to define its historical borders in the first place. That is how the USA conquered the wild west. That is how my country became Australia. That is what the Indonesians have been doing in their far flung provinces, and what Israel attempted to do in the West Bank and Gaza... self conscious of history as we are now, we often revolt against its development. Understandably so... there are things we want to, and should, preserve. But there is little that can be done about Tibet now, insofar as it's independence is concerned. China is modernizing and expanding at a prodigious rate, and it can only be hoped that the outlying provinces can share in the spoils of growth. The extent to which prosperity is shared in China will be the extent to which it's Government will be considered legitimate. What concerns me is not that there are ethnic groups in China with claims to nationhood, many states are in the same situation. What concerns me with regard to China is how it manages the growing dislocation and inequality that arises from its market liberalization, its environment, and, most importantly, its political system and its treatment of its citizens.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Brachy-Pride
The Chinese government is the worst "historical revisionist" nowadays in the whole world.

In the last year they have had serious problems with Korea and Mongolia first for claiming the kingdom of Koguryo as a chinese Kingdom.

Did you even bother to read the news article you posted.

The Chinese government specifically said they have no claims over the kingdom of Koguryo.

As for the worst revisionists, the Japanese still hold that title.