$200 billion government bribe for New Orleans

[Darkstar]

Well, if we stopped locking up people that are carrying minor amounts of illegal drugs (personal use amounts), we'd have a lot less people in jail. Somewhere on the order of 1/3rd, IIRC, and that would drop us out of the top ten among the industrialized nations.

[Mr. Harley]

DanS - I've been married to someone in the Mental Health Field for over a decade (Spiffor ). I have few suggestions reference crime. These all work.

1) Afterschool programs to keep adolescents off the street, for example after school basketball. Now I don't know if that is due to the kids having something to do, or the fact they are getting to see law enforcement officers in a good light, or that since many police really do care about the kids these children end up with someone to talk to. It works, in that the kids in those programs have a much lower rates of juvenile crime.

2) Foster Children. The prognosis for children in Foster Care is horrendous. Crime, the sex trade, bad relationships it may be the single worst indicator for a bad outcome for children. There are no good answers, but we should be spending ALOT of money in studies, etc. to figure out how to help them. And then we would need to fund the necessary steps. Hell, we are too cheap as a society to fund what we do know helps these kids.

3) (Puts on Flak vest). Free, government-funded birth control and abortion. The maverick statistician whose name escapes me showed that the reduction in crime has largely coincided with legal abortion, factoring in delays - newborns don't commit crimes. His speculation is that unwanted children are more likely to end up becoming criminals, and that is largely supported by studies that look at various problems and outcomes heavily associated with those children.

Some simple math. Even if only one and ten unwanted children grow up to be criminals (a very generous estimate IMHO) and an abortion cost $600, hell let's say $1000. Times ten that is $10,000. Each single year of incarcerations costs over $30,000, so a ten year incarceration would cover 300 abortions. Simple math, simple science. And don't anybody use the strawman then that we should simply execute all criminals, as an extension of this. China has the highest rate of executions in the world, and a very high crime rate.

4) Completely revamping the head start program and school systems. Poverty is one of the worst indicators for crime. Poor education is one of the worst indicators for staying in poverty. "No Child Left Behind" attempted to work on the second without spending the money. Equalize spending across communities in the US, correcting for cost of living, bringing the school infrastructure up to snuff, and ;try to deal with the problems endemic to the community (the one case where your point is true, DanS - we do not know how to revamp slums reliably, though that is being worked on also). This is going to be expensive - but is will cost less than our military budget. Think about it.


The Free Health Clinics still save money, even with your objection. Period. Preventative care is ALWAYS cheaper than an intervantion after the fact. Do you have trouble with that. Note, Clinics do not pay for anything fancy, we are talking the absolutely most basic care for everyday ailments. Do you think that most of the poor like living where they do? The first thing most of them do, as soon as they can afford to, is move out. Now you are confusing causation (claiming the Clinic helps concertrate poverty) with correlation (you are only going to build the clinic in a poor area) - the middle class mostly can pay for its own health care, for now.

Darkstar and his comment on the War on Drugs.

[Sikander]

Louisiana can either build what the Feds tell them to build, or they can go it alone in my opinion. We need to build something that is going to be here in 100 years. If New Orleans isn't viable for a reasonable price, so be it. And the Federal Flood Insurance is a much abused program which should be reigned in and stop subsidizing stupidity.

[Dinner]

Alot of the money did get spent on other projects, however, to be fair there wasn't enough money to complete the original retrofit project after Bush gutted 60% of the budget.

[Mr. Harley]

The problem is, even building the levees to survive a Cat 5 hurricane would not have protected New Orleans, though it might have prevented the subsequent flooding. Category 5 calls for a storm surge over 19 feet - with tides the surge for Katrina was 30 feet, 50% over the minimum. I just cannot see anyone, until we got hit by a monster like Katrina, "overbuilding" the levees like that. I can just hear the howls about government waste and fraud.

[Dinner]

It would have been designed to protect against a cat 4 storm but several experts have said due to the direction which the waves were coming and other factors they believe the retrofited levees would have held or atleast the flooding would have been greatly reduced if they had broken.

NPR had an article on this two weeks ago. 60% of the funding for those levees was cut by George Bush so he could pay for tax cuts to millionares. Now because he shorted the Army Corps levee project by $260 million we must pay $200 billion in clean up and reconstruction costs.

[DanS]

The maverick statistician whose name escapes me showed that the reduction in crime has largely coincided with legal abortion, factoring in delays - newborns don't commit crimes.

Yes, but he also made the point that abortion is like killing a flee with a hammer. Reduced crime is a minor unintended consequence of abortion.

[DanS]

Originally posted by Darkstar
Well, if we stopped locking up people that are carrying minor amounts of illegal drugs (personal use amounts), we'd have a lot less people in jail. Somewhere on the order of 1/3rd, IIRC, and that would drop us out of the top ten among the industrialized nations.

If you have personal use amounts, then dealers can't be too far off. I've seen drug dealers in my neighborhood and the value of my home went down substantially in my mind each time I've seen it. Lock 'em all up!

[Mr. Harley]

DanS - you're missing the point. With the exception of drugs like Methamphetamine and PCP, most drugs have no more consequences, and in fact I would argue less, then alchohol. That is my gold standard - or lead standard, as it were. FYI, your stamement about if you have users, the sellers cannot be that far behind is absurd. There are many wealthy communities with no sellers (of the kind you mean that take down property values) and high drug use - they go elsewhere for their cocaine and pot. Use an intelligent straw man, no a ridiculous one. At least here, someone will always call you on it.

Prohibition was not successful, and if you look at it the war on drugs has spent huge amounts of money for little effect. Drugs are cheaper than ever, most of the anti-drug programs, when evaluated over the years, have no net effect (look up the concept of addictive personality), etc. Moralistically derived laws always fail, unless there is a broad societal consensus at the level of Japan. This country has never had that, and never will, so those laws only piss your and my tax dollars away, while frittering away law enforcement resources that would be better spent prosecuting burglaries, car theft, and fraud, to name three areas that are largely ignored today due to a lack of those law enforcement resources. It's not that they are never prosecuted, but most perps know that those crimes pay well in comparison to the chance of being caught.

[DanS]

With the exception of drugs like Methamphetamine and PCP, most drugs have no more consequences, and in fact I would argue less, then alchohol.

All I know is that alcohol doesn't decrease my property value, despite the fact that there are 3 liquor stores within a one block radius of my apartment. Drug dealing and drug use does decrease my property value. Street prostitution does decrease my property value. So I have would have the police crack down on those things.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by DanS


All I know is that alcohol doesn't decrease my property value, despite the fact that there are 3 liquor stores within a one block radius of my apartment. Drug dealing and drug use does decrease my property value. Street prostitution does decrease my property value. So I have would have the police crack down on those things.

I thought all your trolls begun with the smiley?

[DanS]

Keep 'em guessing, Spiffor. Keep 'em guessing.

[chequita guevara]

/me tinkers with the project.

[chequita guevara]

I am not a fan of Federal flood insurance. I don't think anyone in a flood plain should be eligible for it.

[Darkstar]

Originally posted by Oerdin
Alot of the money did get spent on other projects, however, to be fair there wasn't enough money to complete the original retrofit project after Bush gutted 60% of the budget.

Take the Bush doll out of your mouth and chill. Again.

Bush did not gut the bill. Bush has never, ever, ever gutted one expense out of the budget. Not one. CONGRESS, INCLUDING THE LA CONGRESSPEOPLE!, Gutted it. They thought it unnecessary.

Whenever people say "Bush gutted a bill", they are totally wrong. Bush has never, ever rejected one bill or expense during his entire tenour in the White House. This is why he's losing lots of points with the Republican base. There's a lot of fiscal conservatives in there, and Bush is spending more money faster then Clinton ever did.

Second, that bill that got gutted did not include anything in it for upgrading the levies. It included work such as widening and dredging the channel, etc etc etc.

There is plenty of things that Bush has done wrong, Oerdin, but cutting spending or telling anyone No for any bill cannot be put at his door. To date, only Congress has done that since Bush moved into the White House.

You may now put that Bush voodoo doll back in your mouth and continue to chew on it.