11 kids found locked in cages in Ohio house

[Jack_www]

Originally posted by mrmitchell

Murder is murder, by the state or an individual...

There is a difference between murder and killing, and there are times when killing is ok, but murder is never ok. One good example is when you kill someone in self defense. But puting someone to death that has commited a murder is not wrong, it is the just thing to do. Pieces of **** that decided to abuse children or murders should be put to death, that way everyone is protected from them. I am more cocerned about protecting people form these criminals and giving justice to the victoms of these crimes then punishing the criminal. I know many say that life in prison is worse, but i dont care. These people should die for what they have done.

[Az]

Murder is murder, by the state or an individual...

?? how about less slogans, and more arguments?

are you saying that all killing is the same?

The DP is one of those issues I am rather divided on, since I wonder if it stands up against cold cost-benefit analysis. But saying that the state cannot lawfully kill people is rubbish - how can states go to war, then?

[Jack_www]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov


I, for one, think our society goes too far in protecting children (but I don't disagree that child abusers should face stiffer penalties).

But execution? That doesn't even fall into the "eye for an eye" category here, since the kids weren't murdered. I'm all for locking these scumbags up for a long, long time. I don't see how the circumstances merit killing anyone.

Pedophiles will never change and will conitnue to abuse. So one you have to give them life in prison or put them to death. I think death more fitting to the crime, but that is just me. As for protecting children issue I am talking about when it comes to punishing people who abuse children.

[mrmitchell]

The DP is one of those issues I am rather divided on, since I wonder if it stands up against cold cost-benefit analysis. But saying that the state cannot lawfully kill people is rubbish - how can states go to war, then?

Ideally they wouldn't.

Yes, I know, we don't live in an ideal world. But we have to attempt to follow a righteous path as best as we can...

For example, the Allies in World War II killed, but we had to, to prevent a greater loss than was already incurred...

Killing these foster parents will not prevent anything that locking them up couldn't. It only serves primal instincts like revenge.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Jack_www
Pedophiles will never change and will conitnue to abuse.

I sincerely doubt you could prove that this is true for 100% of child abusers.

Still, I don't have a problem with life in prison, either.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Originally posted by Wezil


I understand your concern but how would this have been prevented? Mandatory cell phones for all kids kept in cages so they can call for help?

Ozzy - Wezil's point is the one I was making, too. The existence of rights doesn't keep those rights from being violated; adults have a right to life and property, but that stops neither murder nor theft. These kids weren't abusesd because they didn't have rights; they were abused because their caretakers were sick, heartless bastards. And, in fact, the minute agents of the State perceived this, the State acted. It's hard to see how youth rights would have changed this situation.

The state has failed. Parents have failed. Kids need the ability to protect themselves.

Nice slogan, but what could that possibly mean in this situation? How the heck does a pre-teen autistic child "protect himself"? (To say nothing of the 1-year-old.) In fact, forget autistic; my smart, well-adjusted daughter didn't have anything like the resources to "protect herself" when she was 10. If we had been abusive parents, she woudl have had to be placed with some adult; any other alternative would have been unthinkable.

Concrete things should have been done here -- the house should have been visited more often, and inspected more thoroughly, and, yes, the State screwed up by not doing that. Fixing that, however, is a procedural matter. It has nothing to do with youth rights.

[Shi Huangdi]

People who do stuff like this often are the recipients of pretty vicious treatment in prison, so you guys shouldn't need to worry about them suffering...

One thing that disturbed me was when I read that a Psychiatrist reccomended this form of "treatment". I am not saying this is typical, but maybe society ought to take a closer look at how the mental health community deals with kids.

[Seeker]

Let us turn to the Godfather for wisdom, Part 1, Scene 1:

"What do you want me to do?"

"(whispers)"

".....that I cannot do."

"Give me justice!"

"That is not justice, for your daughter is still alive."

"Then, make them suffer as she suffers."

As good a guide as any Bibble.

[Atahualpa]

Murder, killing, manslaughter, who knows what's really carved into the stones!? And who knows what got lost in translation.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Originally posted by Atahualpa
Murder, killing, manslaughter, who knows what's really carved into the stones!? And who knows what got lost in translation.

Indeed. It might have been, "Thou shalt not kill time," in which case everyone posting on OT is screwed.

[Atahualpa]

Indeed it might have been

[Rubychaser]

sad situation

[OzzyKP]

Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly


Ozzy - Wezil's point is the one I was making, too. The existence of rights doesn't keep those rights from being violated; adults have a right to life and property, but that stops neither murder nor theft. These kids weren't abusesd because they didn't have rights; they were abused because their caretakers were sick, heartless bastards. And, in fact, the minute agents of the State perceived this, the State acted. It's hard to see how youth rights would have changed this situation.

Nice slogan, but what could that possibly mean in this situation? How the heck does a pre-teen autistic child "protect himself"? (To say nothing of the 1-year-old.) In fact, forget autistic; my smart, well-adjusted daughter didn't have anything like the resources to "protect herself" when she was 10. If we had been abusive parents, she woudl have had to be placed with some adult; any other alternative would have been unthinkable.

Concrete things should have been done here -- the house should have been visited more often, and inspected more thoroughly, and, yes, the State screwed up by not doing that. Fixing that, however, is a procedural matter. It has nothing to do with youth rights.

These children weren't in cages 24 hours a day. Putting aside the autistic child and the infants of course, what about the others? Why didn't they run away during the day? Why didn't they tell a neighbor? Why didn't they call authorities?

Because our culture trains children to obey adults, especially parents. Many abused children don't even recognize that what is being done to them is wrong. They are so used to placing blind trust in their caregiver. The same was true for battered women generations ago. Women had to, and to a lesser extent still do, have to be told that when their spouse hits them its NOT ok, and they should do something about it. If that still happens today, think about women long before women's lib. Think about kids today.

Assuming youth were sufficently empowered to look out for their own interests and not suppressed into obedience, what could they do? If they ran away they'd be scooped up and placed back in the foster home. If they told authorities, odds are the authorities wouldn't listen. I heard of a case where kids were in a burning building and placed several calls to 911 for help, and 911 kept hanging up on them, not believing the kids. They actually had to call some outside adult they knew so SHE could call 911. Bull**** like that happens all the time.

Look at this from a recently released report from the United Nations:

Children
are not taken seriously because it is believed that
they do not really know what they want or need,
and the perception is of children as objects or possessions
whose views do not really matter.The
potentially devastating impact of this failure to
respect the validity of children’s experiences is illustrated
in a series of child abuse inquiries in residential
care in the UK. It was found that an institutional
culture existed in which children’s accounts of abuse
were systematically discredited in favour of adults’
denials. Without fear of exposure, the perpetrators
were able to continue their abuse and a climate of
impunity prevailed over a period of thirty years.

In a society that respected and valued the opinions of youth, twisted **** like locking kids in cages would be much rarer.

[Wezil]

Do you not realise the difference between a grown adult woman and a child?

How would you have them "sufficiently empowered"?

[Odin]

Ozzy, the problem is that kids naturally obey athority figures untill they hit the teenage rebellion stage. If the parents arn't the athority figure, somone else, like a gang leader, will become it.

If they told authorities, odds are the authorities wouldn't listen. I heard of a case where kids were in a burning building and placed several calls to 911 for help, and 911 kept hanging up on them, not believing the kids.

Or maybe they were unlucky and got some lazy cranky b*tch who though it was a prank.